did doing both CCS and FAFSA help or hurt?

Paying for College
1

<p>I'm new at all this. Please bear with dumb questions. I did do searches for phrases/words for which I thought I would find answers, but was unsuccessful.</p>

<p>My daughter is a current junior. We're beginning to make a list of schools and will probably end up with around 10-12 schools total. It looks as if around half of them will require both the CSS profile and FAFSA. Based on our tax returns, our EFC appears to be approximately $4,100. I am interesting in knowing, from people who also have relatively low EFCs, the following:</p>

<p>-- If you applied at financial reaches, did you find that they offered good aid?
-- is it worth it to apply at both a financial and an academic reach?
-- if your EFC is relatively low (Pell recipient), did you find that CSS Profile schools were a bad idea?</p>

<p>I'm trying to determine whether to leave the profile schools on our list, and pay their fees, or if they are not worth it. Some things I have read indicate that they can actually yield better results, if your financial breakdown doesn't include huge debt, and mainly includes low income. This is our situation, pretty much. No credit card debt. No car payments. We drive old cars, and live in a decent house. We own a very small business, and work in a non-profit (from which I have just been furloughed at 10-15% of my income). We don't have a ton in savings, but have decent retirement accounts. No capital gains or earned income. </p>

<p>Thanks in advance for any insight into the CSS Profile and its benefits or disadvantages.</p>

2

<p>

All of th schools I applied to I could afford financially, based on running the net-price calculator and the number my parents told me they could afford. Some were financial 'reach’es in that I would have had to have received competitive merit aid, but I applied knowing that if I didn’t get that scholarship, I wasn’t going, end of story.</p>

<p>

This needs to be the first school on the list, and one that your child would want to attend. Too many seniors throw this school on as an afterthought or don’t apply to one at all, and that causes problems in April.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>The small business may be a ‘problem’ for the CSS profile, depending on what schools you’re looking at. A lot of private schools (primarily ones that meet full need) will add back deductions made to decrease the AGI from the business (and they may also add in business value). Some schools (Duke, in my case) also added back my parents’ retirement deductions into our family’s yearly income (after which they calculate a EFC).</p>

<p>The CSS profile doesn’t inherently ‘harm’ you-- it’s looking at the schools who use it. If a school doesn’t meet full need, the use of the Profile may raise how much they expect you to pay, but their aid won’t meet the rest, so it won’t matter. Don’t assume that if the EFC is 4.1k, that’ll be how much a school will actually expect-- many schools will only meet a portion of the need (and expect private loans to make up the difference).</p>

<p>If a school does meet full need, it’ll be need as they define it, and those schools all (that I know of) use the Profile.</p>

3

<p>Run the Net Price Calculators at each college/university website, and take a look at those results. Some are more accurate at predicting the final aid package than others, however as a general rule of thumb, the more questions that are asked, the closer the NPC will come to an accurate estimate of your child’s aid. It also is perfectly OK to ask the financial aid offices at the places on your child’s list about what factors they consider with the CSS Profile. They will tell you.</p>

<p>Sit down with your own numbers, and make a determination about what your family can afford. Make sure that your child understands that the aid package will have to bring the cost into that range or the college/university will be off the table. Then help your child come up with a couple of dead-on safeties that guarantee admissions based on your child’s stats, will be affordable without any aid other than federal aid, guaranteed state aid, or aid guaranteed by the college/university in question because of those stats, and that your child will be happy to attend if all else goes wrong.</p>

4

<p>The net price calculators are not always particularly accurate for small business owners…just an FYI. They are also not reliable when there is a non-custodial parent situation, or when families own things like rental properties.</p>

5

<p>I would definitely not take the css profile schools off your list. I applied to 2 profile schools and 2 fafsa only schools. I come from a low income family (EFC 0). One of the fafsa schools is in-state, and because I’m a palmetto fellows scholar, I automatically got a full-ride from that school. But the other fafsa school gave me absolutely nothing. However, the 2 profile private schools, which are both $55,000/yr, gave me significant merit and need-based aid. So much so that I’m able to attend one of these colleges when nobody ever thought that it would be possible in the beginning. I know my situation is a little different from yours, with me having a 0 EFC and you owning a small business, but I still feel confident that you will come out better with a profile school, especially if your kid is a good candidate for merit aid also.</p>

6

<p>

</p>

<p>–My son, with my input, considered CSS Profile schools that offered excellent need-based aid. We had a low-ish EFC (~4K), he was eligible for a partial Pell. He also had a couple schools on his list that might have offered him good merit aid, although I was more skeptical of what results those would yield. He also considered our principle state university as his back-up to these other options. He was accepted early at a meets-full-need-without-loans school. That school’s parent contribution expectation was almost identical to our FAFSA EFC, plus they expected a reasonable (and very do-able) student summer earnings contribution.</p>

<p>–It was an academic reach, although the need-based aid was fairly predictable from their online calculator. I think it’s definitely worth applying to an academic reach if it’s a school the student is interested in and there’s any reasonable chance of getting accepted. I’m not sure what you mean by “financial reach” – do you mean a school that may or may not give you enough aid, or a school that your could stretch to afford?

I don’t think you should leave them all off a list. It’s true that sometimes the aid from those schools will make them less expensive or similar in cost to a public FAFSA-only option. Most FAFSA-only schools do not promise to meet full need anyway.

Debt other than medical debt typically doesn’t make a difference – a lot of debt or none at all – probably not a plus or minus either way as far as aid awards go. To me, though, the way you describe your finances doesn’t sound that simple. Sure, not as complex as some, but the small business, the retirement accounts, the “decent” house (which I would read to mean a pretty nice house, as opposed to mine which I’d describe as very small, very old, and a little dumpy to be honest ;)). Home equity can be a factor, how much it’s a part of the student’s estimated family resources will vary from school to school.</p>

<p>Honestly, once you do your research, your best bet is to apply to a range of well-chosen schools, including some reaches, and to have one excellent academic and financial safety as a back-up. You just can’t always know what they might come back with in terms of aid until you actually receive that award letter.</p>

7

<p>What exactly is a financial reach? Am I wrong in thinking that OP first needs to read the 2 sticky threads and understand that it is not the forms that determine the aid, it is the information in the forms and the schools policies towards to the information and the academic achievement of the students that are the main determinant of potential financial aid. Given the student academic record and the parents financial situation, you need to find schools that historically threat the students in the same situation well. Every school is different and OP needs to do some research and carefully come up with a list that has a good chance of yielding good financial outcome.</p>

8

<p>“Financial reach” was a poorly-coined term of my own. What I meant by that was “a long-shot”… a school that we could never afford, and which might somehow offer aid enough to attend.</p>

<p>ttparent, if you’re asking me, the OP, yes, I definitely need to do more research and this is my attempt. I am just wading through at the pace of reading as much as I can in 1-2 hours per night :slight_smile: I am not sure how I come up with a list that <treats?> students in the same situation well … that is proving difficult.</treats?></p>

<p>everyone: these personal examples you’re providing are very helpful for me. I appreciate the perspective, and real-life examples (although not exact, but similar) was what I was hoping for this thread…</p>

9

<p>You can ask people here like you have done but some basic should be first understood. Maybe start with the academic achievement of your student, what is the student grades (GPA) and test scores. If it is really good, you need to understand what are full need schools and what are schools are not full need but do give merit scholarship to good students and how your student may fit into those schools given the standard of their accepted students. Maybe your state schools are your best financial bet if the student does not have great test scores or GPA.</p>

<p>Another easy way is just to give some information on the student academic achievement and the aspiration like major or area of study and your family EFC, and have people suggest you a school that might give you good financial aid. That would cut right to the chase and give you a good list in very short amount of time. I am not an expert but there are so many experts here that can give you a lot of help.</p>

<p>Again, read the 2 sticky threads and try to understand the basic first. A lot less wading through if you first get some simple concepts.</p>

10

<p>chaptertwo, Have you run the Net Price Calculators? The problem with real-life examples is that it’s hard to be similar in all respects and, in general, no one knows how some of those similarities or differences count. For example, the CSS Profile asks about a lot of things-- retirement accounts, sometimes money in siblings’ names, home equity-- but schools are free to use that info as they wish and they rarely publicize how they take some of this into account. Also, schools sometimes give preferential packaging to students they particularly want. One of my kids got a no-loan, almost full ride from a school that doesn’t meet need and packages loans. Why? Because it was a financial safety. (Note: The school has very little merit. They did not give my kid merit. Instead, they estimated need-based aid very generously and eliminated work-study and loans.) </p>

<p>FAFSA has a formula and it is possible to work through that on paper but the Profile doesn’t. We do know they basically don’t care about debt or whether or not you drive an old car. The federal formula doesn’t take cost of living into effect and I’ve never heard of a school doing it. The biggest wild cards we see here are generally 1- own business or self-employment income and 2- parents live in two households and students applied to a school that requires non-custodial parent information.</p>

<p>What I did – since I am self-employed-- is run the calculators with my income off of my tax return and I also run them a second time with the info off of my 1099 (in other words, without accounting for any business expenses). I tried to afford that higher number and figured that even a meet full need school would come in between the two. One of my kids was competitive to meet full need schools and that’s where that kid applied-- but I have several kids and they didn’t all have the grades or interests to target those schools. We adopted a different strategy for each kid, based on grades/ test scores/ability to get merit/ our finances.</p>

11

<p>A very simple rule - make sure there is one school on the list where your student is pretty much guaranteed admittance, is guaranteed to be affordable, and which the student would be happy to attend. Once you have that safety school (safe in all 3 ways), you can add anything else you want to the mix. You take a shot - for the academic reaches, maybe your student gets in, maybe not. For the financial reaches, you student gets in, and you wait to see if the aid package works for you. When all is said and done of neither of those work out for you, you still have your safety school. That’s why they call it a safety…</p>

<p>Don’t pull them from your list just because they use CSS Profile - that could work either for or against you. With a small business in the mix, it’s hard to tell. It might be worth a call to the FA office of the schools you’re considering to ask how they treat your particular type of small business. You could run the NPC twice - one using net income from the business, and a second time using gross income to see how much of a difference it makes if they add everything back in…</p>

<p>If you apply, and it doesn’t work, you know you tried. If you don’t apply, your student may always wonder what could have been - if they would have met need or not.</p>

12

<p>I have read the stickies and do have basic understanding. I didn’t think my D’s stats were as relevant to the original.questions…but now see they are. </p>

<p>She is s current junior. She has UW GPA of around 3.4 on 4.0 scale…weighted is around a 3.7. She’s had 3 APs, most of the rest are advanced. Her ACT is low…that is an issue. We’ll be working to get that up this summer, but mid-20’s may be realistic. She is a Theatre majo in a large performing arts high school in Kentucky. She has a very strong arts and speech-related resume to support this for the last 5-6 years, and will apply to colleges with strong BA theatre or performing arts options (not BFA musical theatre). She auditiins well and has not ruled out a performance degree, Our hope is to stay within 6-8 hours of KY to keep travel costs down. Although her stats are not high, I’ve been told on the the theatre boards that she may be viewed a little differently in admissions because she has a lot of experience. She has won regional and school awards and she will be directing her own show on the school’s season in her senior year (leadership project) as well as doing independent study with the theatre dept. </p>

<p>The small business in question is extremely small - 3 employees. My husband pays himself a pittance (30k), and I am trying to figure out the worth of the business right now.</p>

<p>We have 2 schools on the list that are safeties, both financially and academically. She has visited both, and likes both so we should be ok, in the event no other aid comes through. She would still have to take out loans for these, but I don’t think they would be crippling. One is in-state and one is state university in a neighboring state. </p>

<p>We are extremely debt-aware, and the goal is to take on as little as possible while balancing a good education.</p>

<p>Obviously, if she can somehow keep/boost her GPA & test scores and admissions depts value her resume/ECs, she may get better offers elsewhere…right now, that is the hope. Liberal arts schools with strong BA programs in the Midwest or Southeast or schools that give strong aid and like performing arts students are where we are leaning.</p>

<p>Thank you for bearing with me, and giving me your opinions and experiences. I very much appreciate all of your comments. I have posted on the theatre boards, but am now getting into more specifics here with FA questions.</p>

<p>Thank you! :-))
Sent from my Desire HD using CC</p>

13

<p>Oh, I work full time as well, in a nonn-profit, and my salary is not a lot higher than his…</p>

<p>I have also run the calculators for several schools and they are so sporadic. But our EFC on both 2011/12 taxes is about $4,100, so about $1,300 in Pell seems likely (?)</p>

<p>Thank you again.</p>

<p>Sent from my Desire HD using CC</p>

14

<p>Yes, you’ll receive a partial Pell, but you need to keep going back to those calculators. Play with them, including putting in the full net worth of your husband’s salary (minus deductions). Those calculators are sporadic because aid at these schools is not uniform, and many schools, especially the type of schools your daughter is looking at, simply will not meet need, so they may ask you to pay significantly more than 4.1k/yr.</p>

<p>Your daughter’s ACT does need to go up a little-- has she tried the SAT? And the theatre people will know how this is typically packaged, but also look for theatre merit, if your daughter isn’t a strong candidate for academic merit.</p>

15

<p>The problem with this whole financial aid process is that a lot of it is akin to a lottery. And like a lottery, you gotta play to win. </p>

<p>Regarding FAFSA only schools, your EFC will be very straightforward there. it is heavily income driven, and you can get a very good idea what that is going to be. Your husband’s business is too small to be of any impact there other than his income from it. Your DD may get some PELL, subsidized loans, workstudy at such schools, from the federal government. Just be aware that on the day you fill out FAFSA (and PROFILE, for that matter) the forms ask for your assets (and your student’s) as of that day. So make sure you don’t have earmarked funds sitting there. Pay up first. Pay day is not a good day to file the forms. It will be a royal Pain in the Neck to get any changes made, and many times won’t be made if you have earmarked assets that day or make a mistake in them. Also 20 cents of every dollar of your DD’s assets will go straight to the EFC, so it might be a wise idea that she reimburses you for her expenses and you set up an account in your name and SSN for her college stuff as you will only be assessed about 5.6% over an asset protection allowance. Home equity values, small home businesses are not reflected on FAFSA. There is no consideration of loans, money owed on cars, one way or the other. You don’t get consideration for owing a lot of money, having a lot of debt, other than on PROFILE for your primary home’s mortgage and liens which would reduce the value of your home, but not an issue on FAFSA at all.</p>

<p>The problem is that I don’t know any schools that guarantee to meet FAFSA generated need. None. Not to say some schools don’t meet this need 100% for some students, but not for most students most of the time and usually only for the neediest students. You can get some idea as to what the costs would be at FAFSA schools by running a NPC on them, but make sure that the calculator is not using averages in terms of merit money. Many of those calculators use averages for everything so even then, it is not that accurate. When you see figures for schools like the school meets 100% need for 30% of their students, you can figure that those are pretty much their top 30% and get some idea where you D would fall in that student pool for that college.</p>

<p>PROFILE schools could be a problem. That family business could be treated completely differently by PROFILE. The thing is PROFILE is one form you fill out, but each school who uses it can use the info differently. One might really wham you for that family business. What some schools do, is add back a lot of the deductions you have taken for tax purposes back into your DH’s income as well as count the business as an asset, including any money in any business accounts. But it is not a uniform thing as some kids will get a huge difference in aid from one PROFILE school to another’s . So, it’s up in the air how you will fare with the schools. </p>

<p>Test scores are very important in merit awards and are probably the single most important thing. Getting large merit is difficult at those schools that have the name recognition. Look for some of the smaller schools that are not so well known. As for theatre…hard to say. One of mine was a theatre kid, and he did not get any award more than $5K for it, and that was from a private college with a cost about 10X that amount. Very nice, but a drop in the bucket for meeting the cost. And this is a kid who was accepted to NYU Tisch, Michigan Theatre, among a number of other top schools for acting, and a male, to boot. You can hope, but do not count on a lot for this. </p>

<p>A nice little school that you might take a peek at is Albright College in PA. They do guarantee to meet FAFSA EFC less any discretionary expenses (books, travel, supplies, sundries, pocket money, laundry money). So tuition, fees. room/board costs are included as costs covered.</p>

16

<p>this is very helpful, cptofthehouse.</p>

<p>I agree it is very like a lottery, because of some of the unknowns. We will treat things for the next 9-12 months as if she is likely to go to one of the safeties…and if we get a better deal elsewhere for somewhere that is a good fit, THEN we reevaluate. But we’re going to try to “play” to “win”. lol :-)</p>

17

<p>“The problem is that I don’t know any schools that guarantee to meet FAFSA generated need. None. Not to say some schools don’t meet this need 100% for some students, but not for most students most of the time and usually only for the neediest students.”</p>

<p>I typed the above incorrectly. The last two words should be replaced by “most wanted students”. Many schools will come up with the money for the students they most want, even if their average aid and scholarships profile shows them to be very ungenerous overall. So in order to have the best chances for the most money, a student should be in the top of the accepted student pool. Be aware that all of the stats and common data are based on the accepted pool.</p>