Even BA degrees in some liberal arts subjects in sciences or math, would typically require far more major-specific courses (both required and elective courses) at most colleges. Otherwise, the colleges aren’t preparing the students well in those subjects.
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They may also have a heavier load. I heard that the first math course for a math major at my son’s college runs 3 hours of class time, and an average of 15 hours of homework a week.
This is somewhat ironic since think tanks can find a double major in a data science/econ/CS field combined with a policy major like public affairs, urban studies etc to be very useful. Just like the hot areas in economics now use a lot of math/data science, policy analysis is also becoming much more data intensive.
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An example of what I meant for a BA degree / major…
At Harvard:
BA in Math Concentration:
Concentration in mathematics requires a minimum of twelve letter-graded course of which at least eight must be courses labeled as Mathematics.
BA in English Concentration:
As an English concentrator you can pursue either the Honors Program or the Elective Program, which requires between 12 and 14 courses.
At Tufts:
BA or BS in Math:
Majors in the classes of 2021, 2022, 2023, and 2024 must take ten courses beyond Calculus II (Math 34 or 39). Math majors in the class of 2025 and beyond must take eleven courses beyond Calculus II (Math 34 or 39).
BA in English:
For the bachelor of arts degree in English, students must take at least ten courses (above English 1, 2, 3, and 4)
They do. Specialization doesn’t just mean acquiring a specialized set of knowledge, it also means learning certain special ways of thinking and problem solving skills that generalists often don’t have, and they may be applicable outside the specialty.
I was replying qwnorth’s comments, which requoted yours. In any case, you said “usually, with some exceptions.” I think it’s commonly more than 1/3, rather than just a rare exception. It certainly is in STEM and is in many of the most popular majors, impacting a large portion of students. Yes, it’s not every major encompassed within STEM at every college, but the vast majority of STEM majors require more than 1/3 of courses for major. This partially relates to STEM majors often having required math/science foundation type classes, which I am counting as being required for the major. Engineering tends to be at the high side of that range, and mathematics is often among the lowest within STEM, as you note. If you mean only BA degrees and not BS degrees, then the average number of courses will be lower.
Regarding mathematics, your examples assume the math major pursues theoretical rather than applied mathematics and starts out with college level math in high school, so they skip over some calc classes. Without these assumptions, the totals may be significantly higher. For example, if I look up requirements at UMass rather than Harvard/Tufts, then the results are as follows. Math is still at the lower end of the STEM grouping, but it’s notably higher than English.
UMass Degree Requirements by Major
- Mechanical Eng – 35 courses
- Biology/Chemistry – ~25 courses
- Economics – ~23 courses
- Computer Science – 22 courses
- Physics – ~20 courses
- Math – 17 courses
- English – 10 courses
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Recently, I met with a professor at a HYPSM who is reasonably well known and often quoted in the press. We have known each other for a long time, and we started talking about family, and what he said surprised me.
His wife is an executive in a firm, and he said her strategy is to provide internships to kids of all their friends, in hopes they will be able to return the favor when their kids get older.
This surprised me for two reasons. First, because while my kids are pretty good about accepting my guidance on things like interviews, they are very reluctant to accept introductions through my connections. It is important to them that they earn their positions on their own.
Second, because this professor and his wife are self-made to the best of my knowledge. Yet, they have no qualms about making the path very easy for their children, nor do they expect their children to push back.
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Policy departments teach their own majors their version of data science etc through R and statistics. E.g 507c and 508c Curriculum & Requirements | Princeton School of Public and International Affairs
@Data10
I was referring to BA degrees, not BS or not Engineering degrees, as ones where in many schools, the major requires approx. 12 courses.
But STEM programs do not have a hold on having more than 1/3 of the coursework in the major. Same is true in BM (music specialized degree programs) and BFA (specialized Acting, Musical Theater, Film, Fine Arts degree programs). One of my own kids earned a BFA and I advise many others in my job who have applied to such programs, as well as specialized STEM programs like Engineering.
For all those who devalue majors in the arts and humanities, and/or would not support their offspring to pursue such majors in college, thank goodness many parents do support those with these interests.
If you enjoy going to museums, movies, concerts, theaters, galleries, libraries, reading magazines and newspapers, listening to music, need a therapist, want your kids to have excellent teachers, seek politicians who will advocate for causes you care about and create government policies, need an interior decorator, watch political commentary on TV, care about urban planning, need a good lawyer, value an effective minister or rabbi, care about support services for the less fortunate in society, be thankful that smart people entered these fields and had the support of others along the way.
Likewise, I sure am thankful for all those who pursued their genuine interest in STEM fields. Society needs them too.
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My S has a double major because he is very interested in both majors and wanted to learn more in depth about both.
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My D was hell bent on finding her own path. Didn’t apply to our alma mater because she said she would never know if she was accepted if it was the legacy bump or they really wanted her, and wouldn’t accept help from family or friends for internships for the same reason. She hustled for all her work experiences.
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That is a different matter. You can either call it a double major. Or not. You can simply say “significant course work in xyz area” if you want to tell a prospective employer about it. As you get older these things will drop off from the resume.
While this certainly is not true in my real life, I have noticed in this thread, some posters seem to make four assumptions that don’t jibe with my experience at all.
- Equating a valuable career with one that earns a lot of money.
- Smart people gravitate towards degrees in majors that lead directly to “valuable” jobs (where valuable is defined by #1). And not-so-smart people gravitate towards all other majors because no one in their right mind would genuinely value a “non-valuable” career. Exceptions to this rule are allowed for the naive, wealthy, and self-indulgent.
- Since smart people prefer valuable careers, the majors that the people in #2 gravitate towards are indicators of a uniquely rigorous and academically challenging curriculum. Other majors are not necessarily as rigorous and academically challenging because the people who gravitate towards those majors don’t desire a valuable career in the first place (because they are not smart enough or self-disciplined enough to pursue a field that would be good for them).
- And last but not least, several have implied that the successful study of a quantitive field is a clear indicator of intelligence (or at least savviness) while the successful study of a non-quantitive field is not necessarily an indicator of intelligence and certainly an indicator of naiveté. Because of course if #1, #2 and #3 are true, obviously # 4 must but as well.
All four of those assumptions seem obviously faulty to me and I am a bit puzzled about why anyone would believe those ideas except if they have a very narrow understanding of the definition of valuable. I wonder if we are all experiencing blinders based on our particular sets of experiences.
However, I do think that when one starts with number 1, it can be easier to end up at #4. I think for people who don’t agree with #1, it is harder to get to #3 and #4.
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There is nothing narrow about this understanding. It is just a personal and subjective understanding. If one person doesn’t agree with another person’s understanding of what is valuable, the other person’s definition of valuable doesn’t suddenly become “narrow”.
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1000% When we have no artists, musicians, inventors, writers or entrepreneurs because it’s “too risky” then we lose as a society. The children of the rich can and do pursue the subjects they enjoy. So should everyone else. In many cases, things need to be modified so that a field which one enjoys also is a field that pays something or is done in some way to make it possible. But that it true of all careers. There are no guarantees.
When we lock every child into a money generating career solely so they can lead a better life on our terms, we’ve lost a lot. Likewise, if we don’t believe that someone will make it in a particular career because they are from a low income household or are a different race, then we’ve done a great disservice to them.
There are and always will be jobs that are steady and pay a guaranteed salary. Not everyone wants to follow that particular path.
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Actually, I don’t see any sign of any of the above in the comments posted. Rather, I see posters answering, for their own kids, whether they suggest better paying ( not necessarily high paying, just better) majors. Some do and some don’t. The market sets the pay rate for different industries-if the market pays more for quantitative skills, presumably that is because they are in less supply than demand and thus more valuable to employers. I don’t think anyone doubts the intrinsic value of most majors; the market value is important to some parents as well.
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Upthread a poster provided the first jobs and salaries of Yale students by major. The key is making sure the student is comfortable with the likely outcome of their major so there are no surprises. Yes, there are always outliers, but knowing where most of the other history majors landed is useful, for example.
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I think the differences of opinion are not just about what is valuable, but also about parenting.
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I think that it’s laughable that people actually think a double major isn’t valuable. Actually, many consulting and other lucrative fields need folks who understand two things well. My experience has been that the smartest people have multiple interests and combine them. Some followed two disparate paths and tied them together into very lucrative/interesting careers. Those people are paid well because they don’t have a background that is simple to recreate.
Parenting is all about choices. We all make different ones. But to set out a path for kids that is so narrow is like saying that you should only travel to one country. There’s lot of ways to have a successful life ( and $$ success is only one piece). IF you don’t follow your interests and land in a field suggested by your parent rather than your interest, I think the hours will be long.
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