Differences between top east-coast LACs? (Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Bowdoin, Middlebury, etc.)

College Search & Selection
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I agree with the suggestion to look at Tufts. I am also going to guess she hit an off day at Haverford. She should check her swimming times against recent meet results as well. She may not be a recruit but possibly a walk on if that interests her.

If Williams felt too sporty, so might Amherst, Bowdoin, Colby, Midd, etc. But honestly, she sounds sporty herself, and all those schools have lots of non-varsity (club, im) activities for physically active kids. Everything from cricket to rock-climbing to broomball.

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What does she want to do with the bio degree? Is she premed? That could affect recommendations. Also, does she have safeties identified that she likes and are affordable?

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We visited 3 you mention. All 3 were different and in a way the same.

Williams: Favorite before the visit, did not apply after the visit. Beautiful campus. Major turn-off for son was: “everyone was very smart, and acted like it.” By far the best, most sincere admissions presentation given by any of the universities we visited. Williamstown is so small, you will miss it if you blink as you drive through campus. Major turn on for son: T&F and XC success (and all things athletics for that matter)

Colgate: Another beautiful campus described as “In the middle of everywhere.” Which is a cute way of saying in the middle of no-where. Son really liked it here and would have applied if he had not been accepted ED1 elsewhere. Liked the feel of community. Liked the facilities. Sat in on a couple of good classes. Didn’t care too much for the party culture.

Washington and Lee: This was his #2 choice. Again, it is kind of isolated. The coach was the best at recruiting him and he liked the campus. Another one that is fairly isolated. Lexington is also home to VMI, which has the ugliest colored buildings I’ve ever seen (baby poo yellow). He was looking at the time of the major upheaval concerning Confederate monuments and was afraid that even though he is more moderate, maybe some grad school AO’s would hold the fact that W&L pedigree would attach to him in perception during the application process. I tend to think he overthought that.

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@RayManta: If your daughter is a true ESFJ, then you may be approaching this search in a manner that I do not understand. It would be helpful if I understood what “close to neutral on the F/T scale” means.

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In all honesty, every one of those schools would be an excellent choice. So I would let your D visit, see which ones she likes best, whether because of general vibe, location, students, etc. And then see which one of those has a system which fits her, whether it be majors, educational style, social life, or any other things that weren’t obvious from the visit.

@anon145 Many of the East Coast LACs are in rural areas. Williams, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Colgate, Colby, Bates, Hamilton, and Vassar are all in rural locations. Even Amherst can barely be considered non-rural. The PA colleges, Haverford and Swarthmore are in more suburban areas.

Other similar LACs which are in the Midwest would be Carleton and Oberlin (though both are in the middle of farmland, as opposed to the hilly, forested ares of the NE rural colleges
). If your D wants to think of the West Coast, than, of course, Pomona is one of the best LACs in the country.

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If your daughter is a true ESFJ, then you may want to consider Vanderbilt University & the University of Virginia. And sorority membership.

P.S. If my assessment is correct, then only Washington & Lee and Davidson College are matches on your current list of LACs. But, I suspect that Vanderbilt will be the most attractive to her. Sorority membership & a leadership position in a sorority might be the key to her happiness.

College of William & Mary should also be a fit. Duke & Northwestern are other possibilities.

P.S. Very easy to understand why Amherst & Wesleyan did not appeal to her. Head South.

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I’m following this with interest. My D21 sounds similar to yours, and is considering similar schools. The only ones on your list I have visited are Willams and Brown with her older brother. The students I spoke to at Williams didn’t have that “I’m smarter than you” vibe, although I only talked to a few. Otherwise I would say my impressions were the same as what everyone else has been saying. I’m guessing even though she probably won’t be a varsity athlete she would fit in there, pretty much all of her friends are athletes in HS.

S loved Brown, Williams was just too rural, even though he’s an outdoors kid.

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Washington University in St. Louis might also be a fit based on her interest in biology & availability of sororities to fit her personality type as an ESFJ would thrive in a sorority at an elite university.

P.S. One difficulty I have in understanding your daughter is her interest in political debate in light of her personality classification. My understanding is that EFSJ personality types do not like conflict.

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My D last year considered many of these colleges and visited a few (W&L, Williams and Middlebury).

She ended up applying to Davidson, Carleton, Grinnell and Scripps at the 5Cs (which is different but kinda the same and Scripps is the only one that offers merit $$) because she did not like the prep-school vibe of the New England schools. And she thought Swat was too intense and Haverford too small. Ended choosing Davidson b/c good weather and it’s close to mountains (hiking is a passion and they have tremendous outdoors program), great for bio (she’s on PhD track), and she likes the moderate, all views represented vibe – she’s liberal (though not super political) but wasn’t interested in liberal bubble.

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Rhodes College in Memphis, Tennessee may also be a fit. Your daughter would probably be offered a substantial scholarship. But Vanderbilt University remains the best match based on the information shared in this thread. Only 10% of students from Tennessee at Vanderbilt. Vanderbilt is quite diverse. Nashville is a wonderful city.

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Sorry – she didn’t only visit the 3 I mentioned – those are colleges she visited but didn’t apply to!
And, she didn’t apply to W&L b/c she thought it was too conservative and too Greek.

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If she is considering LACs that are not on either coast, perhaps Macalester might be worth a look. From what I’ve read, it’s strong in sciences and attracts politically active kids. It might lean further left than some of the others if that is a consideration but its location (in a residential part of a fairly major metropolitan area) is attractive. Sort of in an LAC bubble but with release valves nearby.

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@samsondale: Her personality type is shared in an earlier post & she has already rejected Amherst & Wesleyan. Macalester is also very liberal. Probably the opposite of what would be a fit.

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^well, I think the OP’s exact words were, “neutral toward Amherst and Wesleyan”. That, to me, suggests she wasn’t swept off her feet, but, still open to persuasion. :slight_smile:

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@RayManta

In response to an interview question, a professor who recently transitioned from Colgate to Hamilton seems to key in on an aspect of Hamilton that pertains to your daughter’s wish list:

https://www.hamilton.edu/news/story/darren-strash-computer-science-new-faculty

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I took it as polite wording. Don’t think that it is appropriate to persuade as the OP wants impressions in order to form his own judgment.

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^I was thinking that DD would be the one open to persuasion, the OP being the Persuader-in-Chief.

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The list of schools is reach-heavy for the SAT score. Middlebury is a high match, Vassar as well. Williams, Swarthmore and Amherst reaches for sure. Not familiar enough with lot of the others. While having a couple of these on the list is great, you need to look at more academic matches; maybe Bates and Colby fit that bill but I’d look at just a bit less selective as well.

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Thanks for all your thoughtful replies! I especially appreciate that many of your responses are general enough to be helpful for other readers, and not just tailored to the way I described my daughter.

The comments about being in a rural atmosphere are very good and you all raise important points, especially since we live in the suburbs of a largish-metro area. That’s one of the things you can’t get a sense of during an afternoon visit. She’ll have time for maybe three or four weekend stays next year, and maybe then she can chose one rural school to get a better sense of what it would be like.

I got to say, what made me laugh is some of the other non-LACs some of you mentioned. I dragged her to UVa over Thanksgiving break, thinking she might fall in love with it, and she feels positive but not overwhelmingly so. It’s on her current list of schools she plans to apply to, but I think it’s lower than most of the others on her personal ranking. She just doesn’t seem interested in large schools. I pushed Vandy a couple of years ago, because I think it offers an education as good as the Ivies but in a less-stressful atmosphere, but she isn’t interested in visiting. In March I was planning to take her to Duke, Davidson, Wake, and then to Wash U, which I think could be a good school for her, but they share spring break with hers, so we shifted our attention north.

The other thing is–ha–someone said, “go south?” We live in the south! I think she wants out, although I think she’d consider a school down here if it blows her away. I’ve told her that I prefer for her to stay on this side of the Mississippi with one exception–Stanford, which she is sort-of legacy (parent with grad degree there). She isn’t interested. OK, I know Wash U is on the wrong side of the Mississippi, but close enough. :slight_smile:

On the Myers Briggs personality typing: She is an F, but not extreme or even moderate, although I believe that’s one scale that shifts as you age. I am surprised by that; I was sure she was a T (for Thinker), and she may end up there in ten years. Someone wondered how she does in situations of conflict. She beats it. She’s a quick, logical thinker, who can find holes in arguments and positions, and articulate them in a well-constructed manner better than I can (and I’m a lawyer, although not a litigator). This is why I always thought she was a T, not an F. Picture her childhood. (1) She argues with her younger sister. (2) Her sister get angry. (3) She destroys her sister with logic. (4) Her sister has no choice but to deck her.

She doesn’t plan on being pre-med. She just loves bio, and loves the idea of doing scientific research. Years ago, when she told me that she wanted to go into politics, I told her not to major in poly sci, but to chose her favorite science and major in that, because the politicians making decisions are generally clueless when it comes to science, and will be desperate for advisors who know what they’re talking about. I don’t think that’s the only reason she plans to major in bio, but I could see her going that route.

I hope that’s everything–my apologies if I’ve missed any questions. Thanks again for all your wonderful thoughts!

EDIT: Re: My comment that she was neutrallish toward Amherst and Wesleyan (and Tufts, too–someone mentioned Tufts). It went something like this: me: How was your trip? D: I loved Williams! Me: Great! What about Amherst? D: Let me tell you why I loved Williams! Me: OK
how about Tufts? D: Wow, I Loooooved Harvard! 
 So she hasn’t said that she hated those schools, they just didn’t seem to engage her like some of the other schools she visited, and she hasn’t been able to point to anything specific. It could be something as small as the weather on that day or the personality of the tour guide–who knows?

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I’d urge you to buy the Fiske Guide to Colleges and let her read. It gives a description of the culture and environment of each school and is a great way to get a feel for places when narrowing down the list. The entries are not written by the schools. The schools themselves and some students fill out questionnaires. It has a reputation for being accurate and we’ve found it to be so. (My son is a senior.) Read carefully and read between the lines. It won’t come right out and say something seriously negative, but a close read will give you a sense of where the issues might be for some people.