I think for a lot of people, this is what they mean when they say they can’t afford to be full-pay.
@warbrain. Yes, I have seen this as well. In fact, Georgetown is a school that one kid turned down to go to a state school with a big scholarship.
My kids’ public high school sends 96% of its students to 4 year colleges - and many go to very highly ranked schools. But I hear of plenty of kids who choose to save money for grad school or to avoid any debt. Not to mention, everybody has a different opinion on what is a “top college” Some families have history and tradition at Big State U or other places. I know many families that value Catholic higher ed. Just depends.
The figures I gave were for Cornell vs U of IL Urbana and were chemical engineering average starting salaries. That is a fair comparison unless one thinks Johns Hopkins has a good ChemE program. That program is a joke for such a fine med school. And I agree Purdue is top notch.
Whether a college education is worth $70k per year depends on many factors, including the family’s finances, the prospect of future earnings, etc. Therefore, it’s impossible to put an absolute value on a college education.
However, colleges clearly offer vastly different relative values, even though nationally known privates and good quality OOS publics generally charge more or less the same nominal tuitions. Merit-based awards should be considered a form of discount to the nominal tuition for families who would otherwise be full pay. Without merit-based aid, full pay at second/third-tier privates or OOS publics is of relative poor value. In-state publics are generally good relative values, but not necessarily the best relative values. For families who are eligible for need-based financial aid, top-tier privates and a few OOS publics (such as UNC Chapel Hill, UVA) that meet full need (and especially that are also need blind) are the best relative values.
Late graduation (needing more than 8 semesters) is commonly a student-related problem, as opposed to a school-related problem. Students who need remedial courses, fail courses and need to repeat them, take light course loads for various reasons, or change major late tend to graduate late (if they graduate at all). The often claimed “cannot get the courses needed to graduate” is often due to being unwilling to take the 8am course, or general poor schedule planning on the part of the student.
Note, however, that students from low-money backgrounds who need to work substantial hours to help pay for school may be forced into some of the above conditions, such as needing to take light course loads to fit school around work, or not being able to take the needed course because of schedule conflict with work. But that does not describe most people on these forums (students or parents), which tend to skew heavily toward high-money backgrounds. Also, state universities in some states (e.g. PA, IL) and less selective private schools often have poor financial aid, increasing the money stress on those students from low-money backgrounds. This is quite different from the good-financial-aid private colleges that are the focus of many on these forums. Obviously, poor financial aid and affordability is a school-related problem that can lead to late graduation, even if it is not one of the usual ones blamed for late graduation.
Agree here.
@retiredfarmer “The cost of STEM education in particular is very high because of competing salaries in the corporate world and the ever changing demands for laboratory equipment. This money is not going into expensive cars and fancy vacations. Our culture seems to value the transient pleasures of a trip to Disneyland above that of a secure and rewarding future.”
One of my most treasured memories is walking into the Magic Kingdom with my parents and brother and sister and seeing that castle. I have such clear and vivid memories of that trip. I can recall moments standing in line with my dad and watching my sister play with his fingers pretending she was milking a cow. Climbing the Swiss Family Robinson Treehouse, and just loving every single moment we had on that vacation with my family. My dad is gone now, and memories of him are more precious to me than anything. So did my parents waste money on a trip? Perhaps to some they did. To me, it was a priceless gift that I will treasure my entire life.
I loved Disneyland when we went as a kid. And ski vacations. Would have traded all of them in a minute for more family college savings so I could have had more choices of colleges to attend.
@intparent We only had that one family vacation, and I would not trade it for anything in the world.
And you can compare pay by major at these schools:
https://www.stevens.edu/directory/stevens-career-center/recruiting-stevens-students/salary-information
https://career.berkeley.edu/Survey/2017Majors
http://career.engin.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/30/2018/08/annualreport1617.pdf
https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=stevens&s=all&id=186867#programs lists the following out of 638 bachelor’s degree graduates in a recent class:
015 02.3% biology
093 14.6% business
045 07.0% computer science
430 67.3% engineering
023 03.6% engineering/industrial management
002 00.3% humanities
004 00.6% math
006 00.9% physical sciences
001 00.2% social sciences
019 03.0% visual and performing arts
So about 67.3% engineering, or 74.3% engineering + computer science.
@ucbalumnus - In the most recently admitted class, 56% indicated their intent to major in engineering, but of course that can change by the time one graduates. Nonetheless, that is not 85% as it was four decades ago. I believe the Payscale data (which is reported by the graduates themselves and represents a broad sample) more than the schools’ own published data.
There are so many problems with Payscale- I work in corporate recruiting and the data there proves garbage in/garbage out. Particularly in engineering and comp sci- where a young grad can accept a “lower than market” offer from a start up with a hefty package of stock options- the self-reported data is rife with errors comparing apples and oranges and kiwi fruit. If everyone taught 8th grade social studies (basically- your base salary IS your salary) payscale would be fine. But it’s not. And compensation these days is a lot more complicated than just “what is your salary”.
I would not pick a college based on starting salary for its grads for lots of reasons. But I certainly wouldn’t use self-reported numbers with no quality control whatsoever!
The Payscale reported pay levels are insufficiently controlled. For example, the “engineering schools” pay levels combine all kinds of engineering, and are for the entire school, not just its engineering majors (it is unlikely that, for example, Stevens engineering graduates had the same average pay as all Stevens graduates).
Hopefully this will be an issue we face in a few years:
DS is a sophomore in NC, ranked first in his class, 1550 SAT and very good ECs etc. Hopefully he stays on his current path and will be a competitive applicant at many universities in a few years. Currently I would guess he is leaning towards Math/CS/Physics. Instate tuition at UNC or NCSU are very reasonable and I think both schools are great options for anyone. It will be a hard decision if he is lucky enough to get into a tippy top school at $70k vs instate costs…
We will not qualify for any financial aid. Our family income is between $100-150k/year which I believe warrants aid at some places but assets are relatively high. I retired early and use the assets to generate our annual income via dividends/cap gains/interest.
Too early to worry about it but we have started having these conversations with him so there will be no surprises.
I hear this argument quite a bit. “The benefits of going to (top ranked school x) are immeasurable!” Are they? An electrical engineering degree at Duke is just as employable as an electrical engineering degree at University of Houston. The difference is that one school puts you at $100k in debt and the other one offers a full ride scholarship.
“With a degree from Duke, I would get a bigger salary.” Would you? If both applicants applied in the same city with the same level of experience, then the answer would be no. The higher employers go on salary, the easier it is to attract an experienced professional to do the job. Once you build experience, your education becomes more and more meaningless.
I would be full pay for 3 children. A fantastic education can be had outside the US at a fraction of the cost where admittance is on academic ability alone. So no hunger games for the privilege of paying 70k + per year, there are world class universities outside of the US. It is not for everyone, but works for my family.
@ucbalumnus - The school’s self-reported data is similarly insufficiently controlled. It isn’t vetted in any way, or verifiable. One takes it at face value.
@yearstogo The NC State Park scholarship (https://park.ncsu.edu/about/) is a great example of the cohort-based merit scholarship programs that I’m now a big fan of and would definitely encourage my kid to pick over full pay at a tippy top school.
Just like how you take Payscale reports at face value.
Payscale does gave by major group reports that you did not link. They are less specific in combining majors (like all engineering majors combined, or combining CS and math), but are more specific to major than entire school averages that you linked.
https://www.payscale.com/college-roi/major/engineering
https://www.payscale.com/college-roi/major/computer-science
This is such a personal issue and depends on your family values. Many kids in our area, routinely turn down MIT, Georgetown, Ivys. to attend in-state college. Some parents could afford it, but don’t think there is ROI to pay 3 times the instate flagship fees, which is considered a public ivy. I struggled with this few years ago, when DS preferred the full-pay school to other colleges (merit at T20, less expensive OOS etc.) We make barely above the income cutoff considered for full-pay, so it is not easy for us, however, we are happy to see him challenge himself and flourish at the full-pay school. It is just a different environment than the in-state school where he has many HS friends.We are okay with driving old cars and postpone discretionary spending.
Wow. UM reports their yearly high range for a BSCS at 180K. That’s the highest I’ve ever seen. So if you’re oos at UM or UCB and paying 30k/yr more than your state flagship, you can break even in 10 years if you get paid an additional 16k/yr because of your school. Hard for me to tell it that is value or not. But if you start out at 180k/yr straight out of school, you can pay back the difference in 1 year and that’s a slam dunk.