Difficult grading in pre-med

Colleges and Universities A-Z Washington University in St. Louis
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<p>My D wants to do pre-med. She has 4.0 in AP Bio (AP score = 5) from a very competitive high school, has taken many summer courses in Pre-medicine subjects at Johns Hopkins-CTY, has done summer research at a hospital for high school research....she is intelligent, smart, loves WashU and terribly worried about harsh grading at WashU.</p>

<p>Since the Chem courses are the toughest at WashU, can someone tell me how many people get more than 3.75 GPA in those courses? </p>

<p>How many fail or drop out? Since WashU admits only students who excel in high school, why do so many drop out of first year chem course? </p>

<p>Anything else she should know about grading before deciding between WashU, Northwestern and Barnard for pre-med?</p>

<p>Thanks</p>

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<p>Premed is especially harsh in grading, but not impossible to do well if you work hard. Most people at Wash U are intelligent, but a professor cannot give an entire class A’s. People drop out because they don’t want to get C’s, or they underestimate the amount of work, etc. Almost half of premeds at Wash U decide to quit being premed at some point in the four years. If she works hard she can certainly do well as many people do.</p>

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<p>I am also a senior who has been accepted and is considering WashU and is also concerned about pre-med grading… I understand not everyone can get As, but is there a strict cap on the number of students who can get As in a class? Do the PLTL groups for chem and calc help?</p>

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<p>There’s not a strict cap, but there are curves when exam means are low that give a % A’s, etc… If you work harder, you’ll likely do better. Math classes aren’t really an issue for pre-meds, its more Bio and maybe Chem.</p>

<p>I doubt the grading scheme is any different at another university. Difficulty is increaded which means more work (which is why many people drop), but overall grade distribution is probably the same.</p>

<p>Imagine a college that gave A’s to everyone. A grad school wouldn’t be able to distinguish between a good student or a bad student. As such, it is a necessity that some people get b’s and c’s.</p>

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<p>I’m just positing this as a question because I legitimately don’t know – is Wash U’s pre-med grading system all that different from other similar schools? I mean, I would just assume that kids at Northwestern, or Harvard, or Hopkins have a similar curve? Even state schools – if you are considering one – I don’t think that the curve will necessarily be all that different? </p>

<p>Your actual exam scores might be numerically lower at Wash U than at other schools, but because of the curve, a 68% might end up being a B+. </p>

<p>The distinguishing factor I’ve always considered to be true at Wash U is the overall laid-back feeling and collaboration amongst pre-meds despite having amongst the highest (if not the best) quality of pre-medical education in the country. I never thought, or have never heard, that the curve here is tougher in terms of % of kids getting A’s or C’s compared to other schools. I know several pre-meds that are not top of the class (B’s in pre-med classes) that are going on to top 15 medical schools anyway.</p>

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<p>I’m trying to decide if Washu is the place for me too. If you’re having trouble with a class, is it fairly easy to find help in, say, a tutoring group or office hours with a prof? How friendly and helpful are other students? I come from a really cut-throat high school, and I’m hoping to go somewhere that’s more relaxed for once</p>

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<p>For science/math classes, Cornerstone has PLTL which is a weekly group session, led by an upper class student where you solve problems for an hour or two a week.</p>

<p>Cornerstone also allows you to set up your own tutoring groups for other classes. If you find enough interested people in getting extra help, they’ll find someone to lead weekly sessions. I don’t know anyone that’s actually taken them up on this offer, but it’s there.</p>

<p>Professors are always happy to see people during office hours, and many (most) are willing to meet with you by appointment anytime they’re free.</p>

<p>Engineering students are eligible for 4 hours per engineering class per week of 1 on 1 tutoring. </p>

<p>Students are all friendly and try look out for each other. </p>

<p>Definitely not cutthroat at all.</p>

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<p>That sounds great, thanks for your help!</p>

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<p>Current BME premed here. From my experience, a good rule of thumb in most classes is that you have to score ~17% above the average to get an A in a course with a curve (with some exceptions like the Gen Chem fiasco my year come to mind). (Ie. ~15-20% of the class will get an A, 30-40% will get a B, ~20-30% will get C’s, 10% will get D’s). These are not set in stone/they vary some: again these are just nice rules of thumb. </p>

<p>Personally, I have two reactions to your guys’ concerns. On the one hand, I remember going through the same deliberations, the same anxieties over my eventual GPA etc. (for example, if I went artsci, my GPA would probably be higher)…but on the other hand, I have to give you some tough advice. If you/your son/daughter (for the parents out there) are serious about going to med school: 1. Hard classes/grading shouldn’t be able to stop you (last I heard, something like ~90% of our students who have a GPA of 3.5 or higher/apply get into med school). 2. When you get to medschool, you will work 60 hours+ (on the low end I’d expect). Nothing they throw at you now will be harder (ie. if you’re in it for the long haul, stop worrying so much about difficulty). Even if you mess up a course, you can always retake. The most important thing I’ve found is not how hard the material is, but how good/engaging the professor is. Every professor here is competent. Every professor is an expert within their field, and probably has crazy awesome research. Many can teach well, but not all (as is the case anywhere). Do your homework on professors (ie. talk to upperclassmen, read ratemyprofessor or course evals) and you’re golden. As an example, I struggled to get a B (ie. a few points above a C) first semester in Orgo. The professor wasn’t bad per se. I’d argue he was on the mediocre side, and that his teaching just did not jive well with me (along with orgo’s inherent difficulty). Right now, I have a different orgo professor for Orgo 2, and the professor is awesome. I have a strong shot at an A, and love the course (enough I’m considering orgo 3). </p>

<p>My advice/opinions:
Gen Chem is kind of a shock to most students who come, because first semester is essentially Quantum Lite, and second semester is the familiar AP Chem. Study diligently/go to help sessions/stay for recitation and do all problems/do pltl if you need it, and you will do fine. </p>

<p>Phyiscs: Take 197/198. Repeat, take 197/198. Avoid 117/118. Declare a physics major if you have to, and then undeclare later. It is worth it. </p>

<p>Bio: Lots of memorization, but not too bad if you start studying early.</p>

<p>Orgo: Do all practice problems in the book. All of them. Whether your teacher assigns them or not. Do the readings. Orgo is tough. Gen Chem is hilariously easy by comparison.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the great post, NINJAINVENTOR! Your tough advice is actually really good advice. Is it true that pre-med classes drop your lowest exam grade? How are the labs in gen chem and orgo? And my host at WashU (and several other people there) also told me to take physics 197/198 instead of 118/119… why is that?</p>

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<p>Many either drop the lowest grade or half of the final, which can be good for various reasons. I ended up dropping a bio exam due to volleyball nationals, otherwise I would have had to miss half the tournament. The labs can be rough, since they are a distinct course for chem. They aren’t terrible, but they will take 8-10 hours roughly out of your week. Finally, speaking as one of the last people to ever take 117-118, it’s all about the difference between how they teach it. 197-98 have a very involved process that involves a lot of small assignments with an emphasis on going over your work to notice errors in process. 117-118 is closer to an AP Physics class, or at least mine. One assignment a week, not a lot of feedback. It’s good for me, since I came in with a lot of physics background, but I feel like I’m more remembering old information I learned, not actually learning new info. Definitely recommend 197-98.</p>

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<p>There’s only one section of 117 next year, they’re transitioning to 197 being the main course. Everyone that wants in 197 will likely get in, so noting to worry about.</p>

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<p>I took 197/198 and enjoyed it for the most part, but I don’t see why the transition to 197/198 was entirely necessary. My friends who took 117/118 with Bernard didn’t particularly dislike anything about the course except for the in-class quizzes, which I think is a little dumb. The people who were unfortunate enough to get Hohenberg and Gibbons are just…really unlucky to have gotten bad professors.</p>

<p>The bigger problem is the professor teaching the course, not the course itself. You can change the physics department so that 197/198 is the preferred course, but that doesn’t mean Gibbons will teach it well. I’m sure it’ll still be a living hell.</p>

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<p>The median on chem and bio has been about 55. How hard could bio be? Over 20% of kids dropped the course. These classes are not for the faint of heart, and despite AP courses in both, my S has worked very hard. Having said that- he also has a social life, and refuses to study every waking hour. He loves the school, but it is tough.</p>

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<p>RaVnz-</p>

<p>I somewhat disagree. I took 197/198 this year, and I only actually stayed in class once or twice per unit. Yes, Bernatowicz is a great professor, but the real difference is the textbooks. If you read them diligently, and really understand what is going on in the reading, going to class just becomes a little superfluous.</p>

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<p>I went into Wash U with a fairly strong background in physics, with honors and AP in high school. That is the only situation I recommend 117-18. People who were learning physics for the first time were completely underprepared for exams, which is part of the reason the first 118 test had an average of 56…</p>

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<p>NWrnnr5, I guess it depends on how you conduct yourself. I rarely did anything more than just skim the readings. I did, however, go to every class and I think a lot of the things I learned came from the lectures. But I agree with you that the book is certainly very helpful, as were the daily/weekly assignments. The homework was soooo tiresome but thankfully it was worth a very fair percentage of the final grade considering the amount of time it took up. If there was the same “you must not miss more than four dailies and one weekly” rule but the homeworks were only worth 10%, there would be no incentive to spend nearly as much time on them.</p>

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<p>Physics 197/198 definitely is the easiest of intro phys, bio, chem, with the most forgiving grading system (high hw and lab contribution, low test contribution + 1 whole page cheat sheet, no cumulative finals). The required hw forces you to keep up in class, but is spread out enough that after a while it just becomes part of your routine. That said, I did have two years of physics in high school, and some of the math on the hw is a little advanced (not reflected on the tests though).</p>

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<p>Very nice post, generallyrong.</p>

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<p>To the OP:</p>

<p>I just completed my freshmen year of essentially pre-med classes (I’m doing BME which is basically pre-med without Orgo) and here are my opinions on the difficulty of the core subjects. This is a long post so please bear with me. </p>

<p>Chemistry: Definitely the hardest for me as a whole. But I may be an exception because I didn’t take AP chem so my knowledge of chemistry was very little. Last chem class I took was in 9th grade. Difficulty wise, the material is heavily formula-based. First and foremost however, you have to understand the concepts behind the formulas, not just whip out formulas and plug and chug. That said, what I did to do well in second semester was first figure out what branch of chemistry the problem related to - electrochem, quantum, etc. From there I can find out what formula is appropriate and what I have to do. Also, what helped me a lot is reviewing the practice tests over and over again, allowing me to read and analyze the problem in a short amount of time instead of wasting it thinking about what the problem is about. Many problems are similar in what they ask for (maybe different variables in the same formula) so knowing how to tackle each type of problem is essential. </p>

<p>Chem Lab: Very hard for me due to the lack of chem background. They do follow the chemistry curriculum so it’s good to know what is going on in chemistry. A large part of chem lab is understanding what exactly the lab entails. I found the lecture to not be very helpful so I read over the lab with friends and understood the details of the lab. Remember the sig fig rules - they are critical point-makers. Chem lab becomes a ritual over time and thus gets easier. Work with precision, but also with efficiency so you finish within the 4 hour time allotment. </p>

<p>Physics: I took 117 with Hohenberg, the class was easy but professor, not great, as somebody mentioned. I didn’t take 118 because of Ap credit - placed out with a 5 in E&M. Tests are similar to AP tests so not a big deal. I don’t like physics much so I preferred the weekly homeworks over dailys as in 197.</p>

<p>Bio: Bio is all about memorization and interconnecting the various processes and concepts. Tests are short answer which in my opinion is the right thing to do. Partial credit is so helpful. I did pretty well in bio by taking notes from the book and reviewing all the information with a partner. Talking through the processes is so essential IMO. Bio lab is a hand-holding class, not much problem there. Also, practice tests are so so so helpful, on the final I definitely saw at least 50% recycled problems. </p>

<p>Math: Not that difficult. Really depends on the professor. Calc 3 was a little tough because I essentially had to teach myself abstract concepts that I really couldn’t visualize in my brain. Practice tests are invaluable. </p>

<p>TL;DR<br>
All of these classes have different methods to success. If you can find what they are early on, then you have a good chance of doing well. If you think you’re not doing so great, remember that a lot of other people are in the same boat as you. </p>

<p>I hope this helps OP and congrats on wash u! I hope your D chooses here :slight_smile: Remember, we have tempur pedic beds!</p>