By the way I always told the kids that we are poor. Proactively. Keeps them grounded. Told them not to ignore financial well being while planning careers. If your daughter thinks you are poor, whether you are or not, it’s not a bad thing.
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We are full pay for middle child (graduated HS in 2020) because COVID interfered with his ability to visit any of the schools that he was accepted to with sizeable merit. He is a math major and has been able to take graduate level math classes at the R1 school.
While we have saved and can pay, the fact that his school does a terrible job at advising, career counseling, and overall how they failed to account for the social and emotional needs of the kids stuck in their dorm rooms on zoom for a year is a particular source of irritation and frustration for us as parents. I can never recommend this school to parents/students and I might have been more forgiving if I wasn’t paying $82k.
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Notre Dame is definitely a fit school and to get the most of the investment, a student really needs to love and embrace the culture. A number of other colleges can provide the education esp in engineering, but it’s the community and other intangibles that make ND special. I think ND specifically looks for people who will buy into and get the most out of what they offer (hence lots of legacies esp in the past). For that kind of spend, I would be asking my D how she will be joining in, contributing to, and getting the most out of what ND offers, that other schools on her list do not.
Having said I would pay for it, I wouldn’t go back on it now. I say this as a parent who had a very tight, merit driven budget for all our kids.
There are also other ways to keep kids grounded when surrounded by others who may have different values/ budgets. My eldest was at Bama, and Blossom is right about state schools often having very wealthy students, especially in greek life. Having a part time or holiday job, volunteering, etc all help keep feet on the ground (and fund the shopping/spring break/pedicures/ etc)
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…look at the angst that parents on many of these posts are feeling!
Full grown adults, who have been successful enough as adults and parents that they are now facing the challenge of
I can spend $300-400,000 on college AND my child has grown into a young adult who is smart, self disciplined and hard working enough to get into a really good college that I said I would pay for…BUT is that really a good way for me to spend that much money??
Yes, it gets real when you are actually looking at writing the check, so to the extent that this & similar threads are really mostly venting -fair enough! vent on- this is a good forum for that.
But: to the extent that posters are considering re-negotiating the deal with the student post-acceptances, or expecting the 17/18 yo to have laid out a good road map for the next 5-8 years, or are wondering whether it’s a good investment b/c of X doubts- stop it! Remember that whether your student has turned 18 or not, you are the only adult in the room
Going back on what you told your kid pre-application is not ok. The information on costs is- and has been- completely available. If you didn’t take the time to check into it, think about what you are comfortable with spending, think about what would make it “worth” that spend, then that’s on you, not the 17/18 year old who does not have the maturity, information or experience to be in charge of that evaluation.
Nor can a 17/18 yo HS student be expected to come up with a solid 5-8 year map or a solid Plan B at this stage. Most kids don’t know enough about what the choices even are (or what they are like irl!) to do that sort of planning. For kids with that clarity a more vocational path would be a better option, but for the time being only the engineering/CS & architecture bound get that choice.
And finally, you are adult enough to know that no school is a “dream” school: it is an institution with it’s own peculiar set of norms. It will perforce get a lot of things wrong (and Covid gave lots of room for extra things to go wrong). The idea that you are a ‘buyer’ in any conventional sense is simply not true. You will be giving your money to the whole package of the college/university, not just the corner of it that you are interested in for your kid, and it will be a black box. And you will never really know how much of the good (or bad) outcomes reflect the institution or your kid.
In real life, most colleges will be just fine for most kids. There are only a handful of life paths for which a particular name/set of names/set of resources will do more than tip the balance at the edges.
For a parent with enough money and accomplished enough kids for them to have multiple good, viable choices that is the prize! Just don’t change the rules on them at this stage.
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I do laugh at these threads because of the vehemence. Nobody ever questions whether buying your kid a house or condo (what you did with the money you chose not to spend on higher priced college) is a good idea, a valuable investment, has ROI. Nobody ever questions whether choosing to live in High Priced Suburb with half acre minimum zoning pays out vs. living in Next Door lower priced suburb with no minimum zoning. Nobody ever writes “I want to save the money to give to my kid for their wedding” and have folks post back “are you delusional? A 6 hour party instead of their education???” And the folks who want to save the money to give to their non-existent grandchildren instead of the kid eating breakfast in your kitchen right now- ??? What’s up with that?
No. We take it as a given that every other thing we do or buy with our hard earned cash is “worth it”, but only college is a scam whereby stupid people write checks for U Chicago when “everyone” knows it’s no better than University of Illinois-Chicago up the street.
I have no dog in this race. My kids are done and launched, and as I’ve stated, nothing I have ever spent money on has been as gratifying as their educations. And yes-- I’m still working (a job I love but that’s besides the point) even while many of my friends who chose cheaper colleges for their kids are out playing pickleball and doing yoga all day- reminding me, "Why the heck couldn’t your kids go to “local state college and commute” like ours did?
Choices. I’m thrilled someone gets to retire early (especially someone who hated their job). I made different choices and just wish people would respect mine.
To the OP- make sure that your entire family is on board with whichever path you take. I’ve got extended family members where a few of the siblings have not spoken in years. They grunted at a parents funeral but that was it. The eldest went to full pay private U-- the younger ones worked their way through a credit at a time. Markets move down as well as up; there are no guarantees on the value of a portfolio. So contributing to a toxic relationship between siblings is NOT something you want to be part of.
Good luck to you, your D sounds terrific!
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I think in the OP’s case, they had a change in financial circumstances after having to retire earlier than they thought and having difficulty finding subsequent work. So while they technically can pay, the change in financial circumstances coupled with looking at that onerous 4 year total from both kids, is causing a valid re-think.
It’s a tough call and may depend on the personality of the second kid - can they have a real talk with her and rely on her ability to be wise and empathetic way past her physical age to see future impacts of four years at that price tag? Can they rely on her not to make them feel guilty about it for years afterward? It can be hard to get the horse back in the barn once it’s out, but maybe this kid is one who would understand her parents’ dilemma and not make them feel guilty about it.
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I’d rephrase it slightly differently:
Is college A worth $X more than college B?
If the parents can’t afford the extra $X, the answer is clearly no. The answer becomes more complicated when the parents can afford but it would mean painful and substantial sacrifices. There’s no simple formula, unfortunately. Each family has to make their own determination, so it’s natural that we all have different opinions. My own opinion is that it’s difficult to justify the substantial extra cost of Notre Dame on the basis of academics alone or the slightly enhanced but still remote possibility of working at an IB (even if she may be interested in such a job), relative to some of the alternatives OP’s daughter has, especially if she may be interested in engineering.
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“The education has been good, but I’ve been bothered by the entitlement I’ve seen among other students, some of which has rubbed off on her (mentions by her that we are “poor” simply because we won’t approve spending like some of her peers).”
Notre Dame is a midwestern school that does an excellent job filling their incoming class with bright purpose-driven students. I wouldn’t worry about entitlement rubbing off on your daughter because she wouldn’t have been chosen if she hadn’t demonstrated autonomy in her application. Everyone I know associated with Notre Dame whether staff, faculty, alumni, or students are wonderful and bright people in their own right, but are particularly grateful to be part of an institution that brings them together in abundance.
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Also, we need to evaluate how deep this kid’s love of ND is - has she always wanted to go to ND from a young age? Has been talking it up her whole life? Has watched “Rudy” over 100 times?
I’m joking a bit but if the love of ND is of late, rather than over her lifetime, then I would feel less guilty about possibly taking it off the table.
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The reality is that stuff does happens. People lose their jobs, people get sick, parents die. I think we need to raise our kids with some flexibility and resiliency if situations change.
We had a close family friend who had to drop out of school when the small family business went into bankruptcy. She worked part time and went to a local college part time and still ended up graduating and being very successful. Her older siblings all got to go to the colleges of their choices because the family financial situation was different. She doesn’t hold it against anyone because no one had a crystal ball.
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100%. I know people who live in houses with way more bathrooms than residents and yet they seem very reluctant to pay for their kid’s college. These are all choices and most of us don’t insist on the same ROI from the gas guzzling SUVs and trucks everyone is buying like we do with college education.
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We decided early (like really early, oldest in middle school early) we weren’t willing to pay full price for any college…and we knew we would definitely be considered a full price paying family. We were upfront about this number from the get-go with our children, and specific about it.
Our reasoning was two-fold. We truly believe there are many schools were a student can receive an incredible education and opportunities, and the other reason was financial.
I am a saver by nature, and fairly risk aware. With three children to get through college and seeing how college costs were sky rocketing - I basically weighed how much risk I wanted to take that there wouldn’t be a market correction during the 8 years we would have 3 children going through college that would make full price college costs hurt and make us re-think our decision. Not to mention if something happened to one of us medically, professionally, etc.
At the same time, I also wanted our paying for college to be a true gift. One I wouldn’t regret having given, no matter what might happen with each child’s college experience (whatever major they chose, if they unexpectedly struggled, if they chose for whatever reason to drop out). So, as we figured out what our family budget would be for college - a big part of it was how much are we happy to pay - no matter what the actual outcome?
D20 and D23 are both through the college admission and selection process. Both were able to find excellent schools with strong merit offers that came in below are max budget number.
We have S24 to get through the process next year. Fingers crossed we have the same experience.
There are been market corrections, health issues and other things that have come along during this entire process. I won’t lie - having set the budget we did helped make us a lot more comfortable when other challenges appeared, as we didn’t worry about whether the college budget was too generous to take care of those other issues without worry and we have been able to ride out the market corrections without stress.
Other families calculate these decisions differently. I don’t think there is a right and wrong choice - I do think whatever your choice is - you need to be upfront with your children and own that it is your choice and any feelings they have about it should be directed towards you, the parents.
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This is the right approach. And applied to everything, from cars to house to college, for yourself or your kid.
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Ahh, you found me out…that is our approach to all financial decisions. So we don’t have a house with more bathrooms than people, heck we have fewer bedrooms that than the number of people in the house. We have fairly inexpensive cars (and drive them til they die), etc.
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It’s a losing game trying to justify the cost for anything other than basic living needs.
Why dine out when you can eat at home.
Why drive X car when Y car is cheaper.
Why go to X vacation when Y vacation is cheaper
And not all educational experiences are the same.
I’m not sure my D would do well at a school like UF where they make business students take online classes instead of live professors.
Are classes taught by GAs or professors?
If she wants to work at certain firms, do they recruit more at some schools and not others?
Since every school is unique, it’s not accurate to say that one school is interchangeable for another and therefore paying $X is better or worse.
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I strongly believe that families should make the decision that is right for them. No judgment here. I’m sure there are people that think it is nuts for us to contemplate spending $80k per year on college, but we can afford it easily and want to offer this gift to our kids. The only time I caution people is if I think they are too laissez faire about taking out big loans to afford a “name” school because I think kids underestimate how life limiting it can be to start their lives with $80-100k in debt hanging around their necks.
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Yes, I think this is key. I would like to think if circumstances had changed, that my kid would be empathetic enough to my money worries to consider helping out by going to significantly cheaper, but still great, college - even if I had previously promised the sky’s the limit.
For most of my kids’ lives, I spent many, many, MANY nights crying myself to sleep wondering how I would pay the bills. I tried to keep a lot of the worry away from them, but I know it spilled over. I remember once younger S handing me his piggy bank to help. So I’m pretty sure if I told them that I was worried about paying for an $80K college (like that would ever happen in my world), they would immediately back down. Older S didn’t balk about going elsewhere when Duke came back significantly more than we thought, and more than our EFC - which already was unaffordable to us!
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Was your older D in college when you had to take early retirement or was she still in k-12? If there has been a significant change in the family’s circumstances since the previous decision was made, then I do think there are grounds for a discussion with your D23.
Alternatively, if your D had gotten into MIT or Cornell, would you still have these qualms? Is it the hesitancy about the price and your changed financial circumstances or is it about the school at that price? If the former, then you hope your D understands. If the latter, it feels like changing the rules of the game when most of it has already been played.
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I sort of took this question as more of a general question than a specific one regarding the options available to OP (fyi, outside of a specific fit Purdue, to me, would be the clear winner - even outside of the cost savings for engineering).
It basically comes down to the marginal utility of the dollars spent and the assessed probability of a desired outcome - which is all completely individual to each person/family.
$300K has a very different marginal value to a multi-millionaire, than to a middle income family. And when dealing with which school is “best”, there’s a large element of the unknown - which school increase the chance for happiness, educational opportunities, career opportunities? Why do you think that? And to what degree…
If you choose a more expensive school, you are essentially trying to buy an increased probability of a preferred outcome. Is $40K worth raising your probability of happiness from 85% to 90%?
Of course, most of us aren’t being that precise, we’re operating on generalized feelings… but I like to break things down in this way.
If $300k doesn’t change your life at all, then just pick the one that you think maximizes chances. If that money does mean trade-offs then you ought to try to analyze it a bit from an optimization standpoint.
And you will never be able to prove the counter-factual. You 100% can be choosing a sub-optimal college and paying more for it… but you’ll never know and you’ll have to be ok with that.
For us, my oldest is generally smart but not a genius. Ie, always in the honors and AP classes but never a standout. He’s also laid back and very adaptable. So, I more or less assessed that there is a very broad range of schools he could be successful at, and trying to buy an increased probability of outcome is not likely to be successful.
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This does not at all describe my thought process. The CC crowd likes to talk about ROI, “desired outcome” etc. in economic terms- better job, more prestigious career, higher lifetime earnings.
We never told our kids what to major in, what kind of career to pursue, or how to maximize their earnings.
And of course more money means more trade-offs; my point above was that nobody questions the trade-off when someone posts they want more consumer goods/spending. It’s only when someone is willingly trading off that spending that the CC crowd starts hectoring on ROI, what you could do with the money if you invested it at 5%, why all colleges are the same, etc. And you should send your kid to the cheapest school and buy them a car. Or give it to them to go to Europe during the summer. Or whatever floats your boat.
Do you really think someone got to the point in middle age where they can afford to be full pay and they don’t understand compound interest? Or opportunity costs? or NPV?
Lots of trade-offs which I did happily back then and would do again, assuming I was still healthy enough to have a runway in my work life which of course- is a privilege in and of itself.
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