<p>Hi, I have a question regarding the difficulty of a program or the courseload as a factor in med school admissions. </p>
<p>I have the the option to both go along the standard premed route, taking their basic science coursework, or I could take a much more rigorous integrated science curriculum which is taught by world famous scientists and researchers at a student:faculty ratio of nearly 1:1. In addition, taking the integrated science curriculum would allow me to take some very advanced coursework in biology and chemistry before my junior year and give me excellent opportunities to partake in genomic research, one of my primary interests. The downside, I hear is that the program is definitly not for premeds and is very challenging. Getting perfect or near perfect grades is not assured due to its rigorous topics and the quality of the students in the program (there is a distribution curve due to grade deflation and only like 20% to 35% of students can get As in the class). </p>
<p>I suppose then, that my question is whether medical schools will penalize me if my grades are slightly lower for taking the harder route and challenging myself in college. Could the excellent research opportunities and the highly touted new way of teaching science make up for or serve as an advantage in the med school admission process?</p>
<p>Any feedback or advice would be great. Thank you.</p>
<p>you clearly go to princeton
thus, i will warn you that the HPA and integrated science department do not guarantee that the integrated courses will be accepted by med schools for the pre-reqs. There were advising no one who was still considering medicine to take the program until the first graduating class gave them some statistics to work with. This was at least the situation last year.</p>
<p>Normally medical schools don't really look at course load/curriculum difficulty because it's impossible to track down all the schools/sequences/special programs/differences in professors at every school they get applications from. They don't know that Chem 113 is harder than Chem 109 or that you took organic from the difficult professor while your friend took it from the easy one.</p>
<p>You should therefore assume that at least during the initial screening process - when they only have your stats, your personal statement and your list of post-secondary experiences, that a lower GPA will hurt you.</p>
<p>Once you get to the interview stage, then a unique program like this integrated science curriculum could (certainly not guaranteed) be a slight advantage for you - assuming that you sell it to your interviewer properly. But you'll have to take the time to explain it and realize that not everyone will be sold on this being a reason for your lower GPA.</p>
<p>As for the research opportunities...unless you are planning on going to a research heavy medical school (look at the USNWR top 20 list for research), then it might help. Otherwise not. I tend to look at research as a box to check off if you have it. Unless you are getting first authorships or at least numerous publications, it's hard to gauge just what research is "the best" or "better" than research other people are doing.</p>
<p>at princeton, and in most of the ivy league, it is grade deflation</p>
<p>the problem with integrated is that it essentially conflates 3 courses per semester into 2 per semester. because of this, the courses don't get the proper designation and there may be problems fulfilling pre-reqs, as i said previously</p>
<p>thank you everyone for your advice, ragingbull in particular as i take it your in princeton now. i spoke with the hpa and they said that aside from some medical schools in the midwest, most medical schools now recognize that the first two years of integrated fullfill PHY 105 &106, CHM 202/7, MOL 214, MOL 342, and MOL 345. The only question i think is really how well it would prepare me for the MCATs and my ability to mainain a high gpa in the program. I figure with some studying I should be able to handle the MCATs regardless. However, are the grades recieved by ISC students very very low? Or is ISC no harder in terms of recieving a good grade than any other Premed classes in princeton (namely MOL 214 and the PHY 103/4 classes?)</p>
<p>wait blue, i've followed many of your posts in CC before, and i have to say i value your opinion. what do you think of my situation? Would it be better for me to play it safe and take the normal pre-med route (which may not neccessarily be easier as I will still take high level biology classes next year) or should i take the the integrated program and try as hard as I can to be in the top 3rd or 5th class? As i am sure it is for many premeds (I'm not really sure though) I am primarily interested in applying to research heavy medical schools that bigred mentioned. </p>
<p>Also, could anyone elaborate on the differences in MD and MD/PHD programs and their application processes?</p>
<p>yeah, those grading curves seem exactly normal, even generous (if it goes up to 35% A/A-'s) for the science classes at top schools, and that I know certainly apply to almost all of the ivies</p>
<p>wait, there's just something that I really don't get. The more and more I get acquainted with med school admissions and the more I listen to a lot of people in both CC and out, I get the impression that med schools are basically stifling intelligence and promoting mediocrity. True, the med school admissions process is still rigorous, and that its hard to judge whether (as bigred stated) chem 113 is harder than chem 109 for any random college. </p>
<p>But will med schools really pick someone with a high gpa say a 3.9 or so but took only intro level science courses as opposed to someone who tried to take several difficult science courses such as biochemistry, genetics, and even graduate level courses in cell biology but with a lower gpa say around a 3.5? Isn't this basically promoting mediocrity among physicians who should otherwise be some of the most brilliant minds in the world? I find it hard to believe that med schools would be so incredibly short-sighted.</p>
<p>I wouldn't say it's THAT short-sighted... I mean, think about how many students submit primaries to Harvard Med school or UCSF or any of those other top schools. They wouldn't really have time to go through everyone's course of study and determine whether they did well, given the difficulty of their major. Maybe in your secondaries/interviews, when they have less of a pool, they might look more into it, but until then, they won't dig that deep. </p>
<p>Also, I don't know if med schools see it this way, but it would seem to me that students would choose a course of study that they believe they can do well in (someone who's really good/interested in political science wouldn't choose to major in physics). Therefore, if you stick with this integrated science thing and do badly in it, it might say that you hold your own standards too high (dunno if this would necessarily be a bad thing in med school admissions...).</p>
<p>Finally, there are plenty of pre-med engineers that probably take classes that rigorous, and many still get into good med schools</p>
<p>hold on there guys, that 35% thing is a soft cap, put in place to bring some of the social sciences and humanities more into line
the pre-req pre-med courses at princeton are giving out no where near that
SSRMAGNUM, you will need to take orgo separately then as well as eeb 211, depending on your AP background. This is of course in addition to english and math. I hear fantastic things about the integrated program - some of the best profs at princeton teach in it. I think for the MCAT you will get better critical thinking skills than you would otherwise, but the content may be a little weaker in the integrated program
that being said, I don't know much about the grading, but I can tell you that the best science kids in the school are generally in it, and they are not all getting A's...</p>
<p>Check with the premed advisors. The rules for Princeton are hard to undertand right now because of its reputation, the so far unknown impact of its grade deflation initiative and the newness of this program.
Overall, coming from Princeton gets you a look that a student with similar GPA might not get from many other colleges. The grade deflation has been well publicized, Princeton students are highly regarded, and the research oriented med schools are always looking for promising young scientists. </p>
<p>If you are considering MD/PhD, the training in this program sounds wonderful. It also seems to offer the chance at getting several good recommendations from famous faculty members. This counts for a great deal on the PhD side. This is all good.</p>
<p>However, even for MD/PhD, and even more for MD, you do need good grades. The premed advisor should know the gpa's of students applying to med school from this program, and how they did in admissions. Overall, Princeton premeds do great on the MCAT's and great at getting into med school.</p>
<p>So... safest straightest route to med school somewhere, but not necessarily research oriented places, might be to pass up this program. You are in Princeton, if you stay with the premed program your odds of admission are very high- like better than 90%. Go over the implications of this program in detail with premed advisor. </p>
<p>If you want a research career, this sounds perfect, if very challenging. How would you feel about doing a PhD, without the MD? If this is what you really want, then I say go for it.</p>
<p>you actually generally need higher grades to get into an MD/Phd program, but that's neither here nor there</p>
<p>I would be careful in putting too much stock in the reputation of a given school. If I remember correctly, Princeton is one of the few places that makes its med school application data publicly available, and that their numbers are not incredible impressive compared to the national average as far as the GPA of applicants that gain acceptance.</p>
<p>Princeton's admission rate was above 90% for those who applied. More importantly, at least before the grade deflation really took hold, the gpa of the average Princeton student who was admitted to medical school was about the same as the overall average gpa at Princeton. In other words, if you go to Princeton and are an average student there, you have a very good chance of getting into medical school. The comparison of gpa to national averages is misleading, because it does not take into account the gpa distributions at these other colleges. At most colleges one has to be a very good student (i.e. well above the mean) to have a good shot at medical school.</p>
<p>For this purpose, the two more useful comparisons are average gpa of Princeton students admitted to medical school vs gpa average of all Princeton students, and MCAT of Princeton students vs national averages for MCAT. Princeton MCAT's are well above national averages. Not surprising since Princeton SAT's are far above national averages.</p>
<p>Again, the tough part of this is the moving target nature of the gpa's and med school results. So far, Princeton has said that the deflation has not hurt advanced degree applicants, but detailed data have not been made public as far as I know. The premed advisors will have the most up to date information. Listen to what they are telling you.</p>
<p>For MD/PhD programs research potential counts for a lot, and can make up for some lower grades. For research potential, the committees will look at performance on independent work, and recommendations from faculty. Strong research performance and supportive letters, particularly from leading scientists, can lift someone up to admission in spite of lower overall grades.</p>
<p>For someone interested in academic medicine and from whom gaining admittance to a top research medical school is a high priority, the integrated program seems to be the way to go. It provides rigorous classroom and laboratory training and the opportunity to work closely with outstanding profs. That type of mentoring is invaluable and highly unusual at the undergraduate level It may occur at LACs but usually profs teaching there may not be major players in the research world. If you are applying to M.D./Ph.D programs from Princeton, and were not part of this program, I think top medical schools would wonder why. They may ask about your commitment to a research career, your willingness to challenge yourself maximally (honors vs. APs in high school story), and your own ability relative to other top applicants from Princeton applying to the same program. If you are only applying for M.D. programs to these same schools, and you want to sell yourself as a future academic physician, it may be less important to choose the program. Academic medicine can also include a more clinical and clinical research pathway. If you majored in another science, such as chemistry or physics, or even biophysics, the integrated program also may not be as important for someone trying to gain entry into a top school as a future medical scientist. It is presumed you will excel in the courses and research offered by those departments.</p>
<p>On the other hand, if you want to be a practicing clinical physician, I would say that 80% of the medical schools in the U.S. probably wouldn't make much, if any, distinction between which program you took. They would look at your overall academic performance at Princeton.</p>