<p>My son is considering top liberal arts colleges such as Amherst, Williams and Middlebury, he is also looking into Swarthmore. He is a good student and bright student with a 33 ACT. His concern at Swarthmore is the difficulty of the school in relation to other top liberal arts colleges and he has heard there is rampant deflation of grades .. is this just a rumor?</p>
<p>There's no "deflation" of grades at Swarthmore. The median GPA is somewhere in the B+ range. For the most recent graduating class, a 3.7 GPA missed the cut for the top 15% in Phi Beta Kappa which was believed to be in the 3.75 range. </p>
<p>Here's the deal. Students choose Swarthmore because they LIKE the emphasis on academics. I don't think the average course at Swarthmore is inherently any harder than at the other schools you mention. They teach the same books, after all. A good student at any of those schools will work just as hard as a Swarthmore student. The difference is that, on average, Swarthmore students tend to be very engaged in their courses. The do (most of) the assigned reading. They go to class. They participate. They enjoy learning (most of the time). The professors, in turn, love teaching motivated, prepared students and push themselves to push the students. There's a quasi-peer relationship between students and professors at Swarthmore that both enjoy. The professors try very hard to keep it interesting. For example, I remember my daughter's course on modern religious ethics where the writing assignment was a weekly letter to the editor (of the New York Times) on a hot button issue like abortion or the death penalty...not only grappling with an issue, but learning a valuable style of written argument. Is that hard? I dunno. It's really motivating to bright young adults. That was one of several courses where I thought the writing assignments were just cool as could be. She had other courses that required doing a podcast. Others that required presenting problem sets to the class. Others that required field internships in Philadelphia and presentations to the class.</p>
<p>Having said that, you can make Swarthmore very difficult if you want to. The Honors program can be demanding, especially senior year when the outside examiners come for oral exams. Taking extra credits can be challenging. Most Swatties figure out early on how to balance their schedule among different types of courses.</p>
<p>The level of academic support is strong. For example, in their recent self-study, Amherst held up Swarthmore's peer writing support program as the model to shoot for, saying they are anywhere near it now. Nominated Swarthmore sophmores take a semester-long course for credit on teaching writing and then join the ranks of WAs who review student papers and make suggestions -- either on a drop in basis or assigned to a class. Other schools have a writing review program, but with minimal training instead of a full semester advanced course.</p>
<p>There are organized study groups in the sciences paid for with a grant from Howard Hughes Medical Institute. And, so on and so forth.</p>
<p>My daughter did not find the academics to be unreasonably challenging or stressful. She worked diligently, treated it like a job in terms of scheduled study time. She's proud of her work at Swarthmore and just raved about at least two courses every semester she was there.</p>
<p>She does say that, academically, there are two kinds of students who shouldn't go to Swarthmore: students who go to college planning to be slackers and students who will come unglued if they don't get an "A" every time.</p>
<p>Thank you again for a thoughtful and well written reply about Swarthmore. As a father of a young man who is seriously considering becoming a "Swattie", I look forward to your replies. I asked at least ten students if they were overwelmed by their courses and not one said yes. They said they liked their classes but everyone of them told me it was very doable as long as you stay on top of things. They all told me that the study groups were great. Please post as often as you can on really anything because I learn so much about Swarthmore reading your responces!</p>
<p>Whether Swarthmore courses are harder than at other top LACs I don't know. But I have heard on several occasions that Professors from other schools (both visiting Profs and Profs at Penn where my D took classes) were felt to be teaching at a lower level than the Swarthmore students were used to, both in the speed at which the courses proceeded and the sophistication of the lectures.</p>
<p>I second what jollymon said. As a parent of a current freshman, my family learned a great deal about Swat during the months when my daughter was considering colleges from reading the posts of Interesteddad. My daughter ended up applying ED and is a very happy freshman. </p>
<p>As for the question above regarding the difficulty of the academics, my daughter says her classes are very manageable. Definitely more work than high school, mainly due to the amount of reading that is assigned, but not so much that it can't be done. The thing is, she says, the reading is really interesting and the discussions in and out of class on the readings are amazing. This of course, makes the students want to do the readings.</p>
<p>My daughter is busy, but in a good way. She is taking 4 classes, all of which she likes and two that she raves about every time I talk to her. Part of why she is busy, is that on top of her coursework, she is singing in the chorus, taking private voice lessons, involved in several clubs, working as an usher in the performing arts center and in a theatre musical. The musical being the most time consuming, as they have rehearsals most evenings and all day Saturdays. But, she would not have it any other way. She loves every minute of Swat so far. My daughter says that all of her friends are busy like she is, but all very happy about it because they are doing things they are passionate about.</p>
<p>On a side note: Another thing my daughter loves about Swat, is the proximity to Philly. She and friends have gone on the train into Philly the last three weekends for dinner. Coming from a rural area, she loves the opportunity to experience new cuisine. (last night they went to an Afghani Restaurant and ate on the floor!) She says being so close to a major city with so much culture, is just icing on the cake for being a Swattie.</p>
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But I have heard on several occasions that Professors from other schools (both visiting Profs and Profs at Penn where my D took classes) were felt to be teaching at a lower level than the Swarthmore students were used to, both in the speed at which the courses proceeded and the sophistication of the lectures.
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<p>I've heard that, too. Prof. Burke has touched on it in his blog. He says that, because the students tend to do the reading (and he's realistic, offering a guide on how to skim college reading), he doesn't have to do a lot of what he calls "coverage" in class. Instead of regurgitating the reading for students who haven't done it, he can move on to build upon or present a challenge to the points in the reading. In fact, he says that he prefers assiging texts that are flawed or debatable in some way so that his students will challenge the assumptions in the reading in a way that a perfectly airtight reading doesn't allow.</p>
<p>I've read some faculty reports from other schools that complain about groups of students not being engaged or doing the reading slowing the entire class down and how they would actually prefer that those students not come to class. I don't think you get a lot of that at Swarthmore. It's not that that the good students are different, it's that there isn't a big slacker cohort acting as an anchor on the classes.</p>
<p>One of the tricks a senior on her hall taught my daughter early in her freshman year was to specifically prepare a question or comment from the reading to raise during discussion in the next day's class. On the one hand, it's consciously "gaming" the system (since class participation counts), but if it's a widespread practice, then you have a class of students actually thinking ahead of time about something to discuss from the reading, which has got to be a wonderful thing for the professor!</p>
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She and friends have gone on the train into Philly the last three weekends for dinner.
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<p>Good for your daughter! IMO, it is so important at any college, especially a small college, to get away from the ivory tower with some regularity. City kids go crazy if they don't get their city fix. Country and suburban kids benefit enormously from the new experiences.</p>
<p>About grades--I think the average GPA at Swarthmore is something like 3.2 or 3.3. I don't know what that translates into for letter grades. I've never read that students at Swarthmore are more likely to do the readings than at Amherst or Williams, but based on my classes, people do keep up with the readings. I'm taking History 036, a course on modern German history right now. It's fairly advanced for a freshman--most students in the class are upperclassmen, but it's not too bad. People do read the readings and discuss them. Some freshmen here actually find the work not too challenging, but that's because they're not taking very difficult classes. For example, many people who have taken AP Biology in high school are taking Intro to Biology. Apparently Swarthmore wants people to take a college-level biology course here, but people who have had exposure to AP Biology probably find the course material here not too difficult. On the other hand, I've never taken a biology course ever, so all this is very new and difficult. The amount of homework, I think, can best be described as "reasonable." You're not going to die under so much work that you can't possibly do well on it. A side note: You don't get busy work here. If you do nothing here except study, then you should definitely be able to handle the work. But most people here are actively involved in other things. I write for the campus newspaper, for instance, and that does take up quite a bit of time, scheduling interviews, meeting, doing background research, and writing the article. I've never written for a newspaper before, and it is great that I'm able to do this. On top of that I also have two jobs. Most people participate in social events too. Last night was the Pterodactyl Hunt, and a lot of people did that. My point is that academics by themselves are doable, but it's much harder when you balance other activities. Still, Swarthmore is a very academically intense place. Just make sure you don't take classes where you know pretty much all the information. In other words, the student decides how he wants his education to go. Professors do their job to teach, and it's up to the student to fulfill his role. Most students are very engaged in the subject and want to learn the material.</p>
<p>Like Swatmom, I am the mother of a very happy freshman. I am deeply grateful to Dadx3 and Interesteddad, both of whom took time to answer questions when my daughter was agonizing over whether Swarthmore would be "too serious." (She was concerned that students would study constantly and would not act silly. ) Both gave me solid, accurate answers that I was able to share with my D when decision time came around. These two gentlemen are great ambassadors for Swarthmore and representative of the culture of care so pervasive at this school.</p>
<p>Since my D just started, my personal knowledge of Swarthmore is limited. However, from everything I have experienced thus far, I am extremely grateful that she was given the opportunity to become a young adult within the confines of Swarthmore. And so I will share what she has reported, hoping that I can be of some help in dispelling the seriousness and difficulty fears.</p>
<p>Earlier this week D mentioned that the workload was intensifying. She said that with so much assigned reading, she did not have any time left to do any personal reading or writing. (She is a reader and writer by nature.) She quickly added, however, that she does not feel stressed and that she still loves being there. She also noted that she was fully aware that part of the reason why she did not have any extra time for non-assigned reading and writing was because there is so much to do extracurricularly and that she is doing it a lot of it. </p>
<p>I remembered a comment by Interesteddad about the reading loads and how it was important to balance by skimming; so I shared his insight with my D. (Thanks ID! She is going to give it a try.) At that point she also noted that she is taking two writing courses and that those courses are time consuming because she is having to research and write papers every week, so she decided that another trick might be to avoid doubling up on W courses in the future.</p>
<p>As we talked some more (the longest she has since arriving there) she made a statement that I consider to be insightful. She said that some kids were walking around totally stressed out, but that she figured that many of them would be consumed with anxiety in any setting because they are the kind who are totally grade conscious and are now obsessed with their shadow grades. (For those of you not familiar with Swarthmore, the first semester is Pass/Fail but shadow grades are tracked in case that the student ever needs to show them.) Although, D was a straight A student in a very competitive and demanding school, she always had the attitude that what was important was not the grades, but what she got out of her classes. It was not unusual to see her going off in tangents and reading in depth on her own about some obscure reference in the text instead of studying for a test. As a result, despite her lack of interest in the grades themselves, the As and teacher praise just followed naturally. </p>
<p>The bottom line is that from everything that I have absorbed (yes absorbed, not simply observed) in my own quest to learn about Swarthmore, I have come to the conclusion that if a student is well adjusted and sufficiently mature, Swarthmore will offer him/her an abundance of opportunities to develop and grow as an interesting person with much to offer others. The pressure cooker reputation is largely the result of self-driven students driving themselves into grade obsession at a school that is more about the process than the grades. So if the goal is to graduate with straight As, from college, Swarthmore would not be a healthy environment. But if the goal is to explore and learn for the sake of learning, I cannot think of too many other environments that make it possible as well as Swarthmore. With that, I will reiterate that it is my belief that Swarthmore is a great place for a student to be intellectually stimulated, where s/he will have the opportunity to become socially conscious, if that is his/her desire, and have fun being silly as my D was last night being followed by a vampire during the Pterodactyl Hunt. And I have come to understand, too, the love and respect for Swarthmore that ID and Dadx3 so freely have shared.</p>
<p>I agree with most of what you said, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that the "pressure cooker" reputation is largely the result of grade-obsessed students. In the first month or so of school, there probably won't be an incredibly stressed atmosphere, but according to some students and my math professor, it does get really hectic around finals, as it would everywhere else, but I think more so here, since so many people are academically driven. So there could very well be a pressure cooker environment later but not because people are obsessed over grades. I think students here are also pressured not necessarily to get an A, but to do well in terms of really understanding the material. Because there is a lot of new material, and because many students are very busy here, students also get stressed because they want to learn the current course material before the professor goes on to a new topic. I actually don't know anybody who is that concerned over grades but more about learning the material--"I've gotta finish this book soon" means that the student wants to learn the material before the lecturer continues, not so much that the students is crazy over an A but more that the student cares a lot about learning and not falling behind. You don't hear much of "I really want an A in bio--I've got to study a lot more." It seems to me that the pressure cooker environment is more about students trying to do well (by learning as much as they can) rather than getting a top grade. I don't know anybody else's grades here. I don't even know any of my own grades here!</p>
<p>DChow,</p>
<p>I did not mean to give the impression that kids were going around talking about getting A's or any letter grade. What I stated was that already there were some students stressed out and anxious over the "shadow grades" as a whole (even before grades are out), apparently, largely related to the fact that they want to go on to professional and graduate schools. </p>
<p>I agree with you that the majority of Swatties are more interested in learning. That is what I meant when I stated that Swarthmore is more about the process than grades and, thus, students who are obsessed with grades would not be happy there. Incidentally, I believe that one of the reasons that my D is so happy at Swarthmore is precisely because the majority of the kids are genuinely engaged in learning, for the sake of learning, and actively persuing all kinds of non-academic interests.</p>
<p>In terms of amount of work - my D (freshman) is taking a religion class (First Year Seminar); they read and discuss one book per week, start on Friday of previous week and need to have read ~half the book or more by the following Monday's class to be able to discuss coherently. For what it's worth...</p>
<p>I've heard from many places that Swarthmore has a more academic reputation than its peers like Williams, Amherst and Middlebury...I'm just wondering what gave rise to such a reputation? Personally I would prefer a more academics-oriented LAC.</p>
<p>I really hate getting into comparisons. Williams (my alma mater) and Amherst are top academic schools. It would be wrong to think that there aren't students and classes at a very high academic level at those schools.</p>
<p>What makes Swarthmore unique is that academics are its signature quality. It's like: you go to Maine for the lobster; you go to Swarthmore for the academics. It attracts students who want to play a championship golf course from the back tees. The professors, in turn, feed off the students.</p>
<p>This is not new. When I was at Williams in the 1970s, Swarthmore was the one school that would get ooohs and aaaahs in terms of academics.</p>
<p>How did it get that way? There are lots of reasons, but most keen observers of the school would point to the 1922 implementation of a radical new honors program. No grades. No regular classes. Just small seminars with 3 or 4 students and a professor. At the end of senior year, outside professors from schools like Brown, Dartmouth, Yale, and others came in, gave the honors students written and oral exams. The outside examiners determined whether they got Honors, High Honors, or Highest Honors. In a way, the outside examiners were testing the students and professors equally. </p>
<p>Outside</a> Examiners Descend on Swarthmore for Annual Honors Ritual</p>
<p>This did two things: it established the small, discussion-based seminar and close student/faculty interaction as a prevailing style at Swarthmore. Obviously, this spread to non-honors teaching as well. Second, hundreds of professors from other top schools have come to Swarthmore each spring for the last eighty years and left with strongly favorable impressions of Swarthmore and its students (who are often doing work on par with the visiting professors' grad students). This built Swarthmore's academic reputation and helped Swarthmore students get into top PhD programs at the home schools of the visting professors, which further built the reputation.</p>
<p>It's not that Swarthmore is "harder" per se. There's just a campus culture that really values academics as a top priority in the college experience. You find that the average Swarthmore student really, really loves many of his or her courses. Like, would take them just for fun.</p>
<p>momuv2:</p>
<p>That's why my daughter would beg professors to not change up the reading on a day's notice, something that just plays havoc with scheduling the reading out ahead of time.</p>
<p>Swat academic advisors will caution, and students quickly figure out, not to take too many reading courses at the same time. Balance a heavy reading course with a problem set course in math or statistics or an art history course memorizing paintings. It depends on the reading, too. Your daughter's FYS looks fabulous, but the reading looks like a real slog. Conversely a course on the novel might be much breezier reading, even though there are a lot of books involved.</p>
<p>interesteddad, thanks a lot for your detailed reply!</p>
<p>My impression is that Swarthmore is most similiar to the University of Chicago. Students at both schools have a true "love of learning". I suspect that students at the two locations of St. John's College (great books program of study) are of the same mold.</p>
<p>as an art history minor, i just have to add that an art history course is not merely about memorizing paintings. at all.
not even in the intro survey courses. there's a lot of interpretation, analysis, discussion, comparison, etcetera.
and "art" is not just paintings, either.</p>