difficulty of getting a JD versus MBA

<p>I guess that really is basic calculus. You don't do anymore difficult stuff? </p>

<p>We started our economics applications units with questions like that and some like this for example:</p>

<p>demand- p=1200-0.2x-0.0001x^2</p>

<p>Find consumer surplus when sales level is 500. And all it takes is a little basic calculus to solve</p>

<p>price at 500 units= 1075</p>

<p>integrate from 0 to 500 the demand function minus the price</p>

<p>integral from 0-500 of (1200 - 0.2x - 0.0001x^2 - 1075) dx</p>

<p>125x - o.1x^2 - (0.0001)(x^3/3) from 0-500</p>

<p>(125)(500) 0 (0.1)(500)^2 - (0.0001)(500)^3 / 3</p>

<p>= $33,333.33</p>

<p>Nope, seems like your Calc class was a bit more in depth than my eco class. My point wasn't to say how much calculus one needs to know- just that some classes are pretty hard. The reason I think people think that even solid MBA programs are "easy" is simply because at the top of the hill, there are a lot of people who are much, much smarter than average. The coursework that is hard for a typical college student seems easy for people who are intellectually gifted. Think about it, how many people in Wharton are going to think basic statistics is hard. Now, take a student from random community college X and put them in the same class. Chances are the community college student would think the Wharton class was hard. Stated another way- someone with a 135 IQ (my guess of what the average Wharton IQ is) would in all likelihood think a class is easier than someone with a 115 IQ (average college student?). Sometimes, you just need to think of things in perspective.</p>

<p>Caveat- I do believe that SOME MBA programs are easy-reference U-Phoenix et al....</p>

<p>Well, the actual question of this thread is: how does an MBA compare to a JD? If they're of equivalent tier (or even if they're not), the coursework of a JD is almost certainly harder.</p>

<p>I mostly agree with this statement with one exception. People who fear math won't have to deal with it on the LSAT or in law school. On the other hand math is half of the GMAT and good MBA programs are almost always quantitative in nature. I do agree that if math anxiety is removed from the equation, Law school is harder. My point was I don't think the gap is as big as a lot of people portray it to be and for some with math issues, law school can actually be easier. Again, it's all relative.</p>

<p>Well, based on what has been said about the math needed for an mba program, math anxiety should be removed from the equation.</p>

<p>That looks like my Intermediate Micro homework...Fun stuff.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Well, based on what has been said about the math needed for an mba program, math anxiety should be removed from the equation.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The MBA coursework is very quantitative and while the "math" itself may not be that high level the course work is extremely difficult. Even some of the courses that you wouldn't expect to be quant-heavy, like marketing, are if you are to come to a reasonable solution to the cases.</p>

<p>As for grades, I wouldn't judge how hard a program is based on how easy it is to flunk out. Many business schools work on curves and have a set percentage of students who will receive a certain grade (perhaps 10-20% As, 60-70% Bs, 10% Cs, worst case scenario = F). So, yes, it is hard to flunk out. However, how easy is it to finish at the top of your class? I would say a hell of a lot harder than finishing at the top of a comparable sized engineering class. Why? Because both the quality and the drive of the students you are competing against are much higher at a top business school....especially when you consider the foreign students (some of which come from very driven cultures and have graduated from universities which are much more difficult to get into than Harvard/Stanford/Princeton etc).</p>

<p>The first semester of graduate business school is very intense. I have buddies that would study until 3am practically every night. The course work is intense, but there are also a lot of "side" activities that one must be involved in to have a successful business school experience (ie various organizations, internship search, case competitions, etc).</p>

<p>Hi all. I'm a current student at sloan.
Just wanted to chime in and say that we did have similar problems during 15.010. The professor gave shortcuts for people who didn't know calculus. I used calculus because it made more sense to me.
I do have to say, though, often times professors in economics or finance complicate the mathematics (make things confusing) because they want you to believe what they are doing is difficult =).
As for workload - I'm in the LFM program (MBA + M.S. in eng in 2 years) so I'm taking engineering classes with it - so I have a skewed view. Let's just say that I'm busy.
Finally, I realize it would be easy to think MBA's aren't too bright because some might not understand simple calculus. I originally had that view, coming from a rigorous engineering background. I am continually surprised by just how smart my classmates are, even those who don't know/remember calculus.</p>

<p>
[quote]
As for grades, I wouldn't judge how hard a program is based on how easy it is to flunk out. Many business schools work on curves and have a set percentage of students who will receive a certain grade (perhaps 10-20% As, 60-70% Bs, 10% Cs, worst case scenario = F). So, yes, it is hard to flunk out. However, how easy is it to finish at the top of your class? I would say a hell of a lot harder than finishing at the top of a comparable sized engineering class. Why? Because both the quality and the drive of the students you are competing against are much higher at a top business school....especially when you consider the foreign students (some of which come from very driven cultures and have graduated from universities which are much more difficult to get into than Harvard/Stanford/Princeton etc).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I don't know that I can agree with that. The truth is, you don't really need to finish at the top of your class, and many students know this. In fact, this is why many students at the top schools don't really care very much about their grades (as long as they pass) and would rather spend their time recruiting and networking, which is what they really came to do. After all, most MBA students are trying to get the job of their choice, yet many employers don't care very much about grades. Those jobs require networking. </p>

<p>Let me trace the steps that numerous MBA's take. Most of them spend their first semester hunting for an internship for their first summer. Those internship employers have the grades of, at best, only one semester (the first fall semester) with which to base their decisions on. Sometimes they don't even get to see those grades, as hiring decisions are often times made at about the same time (around the Dec/Jan timeframe) that first-semester grades are coming out, which means that they may not get to see any grades. Then, once they've secured a summer internship, what matters to get a full-time offer with that firm is to do well in that internship, and if you do, then it doesn't matter what your grades are for the entire MBA program (again, as long as you pass). And certainly, many MBA students enter their 2nd year with full-time offers from their summer internship employers, which makes the entire 2nd year's grades superfluous. </p>

<p>Secondly, we have to keep in mind that many top MBA programs don't even publicly report grades. Stanford, Kellogg, Wharton, Chicago - all these schools have varying policies of grade nondisclosure (some which are actual administrative rules, others on a voluntary basis within the student community). Hence, again, grades become meaningless as long as you pass. </p>

<p>I will always remember a number of MBA students ruing the fact that they studied extremely hard to get high grades, but didn't get the job offer they wanted, and how they should have studied less and networked more. Grades are, frankly, not that important to most MBA's. </p>

<p>So while I agree that MBA students at top schools are highly driven, the real question is what they are driven to do? The answer is not really grades. They're driven to get the job they want, which is hardly the same thing as getting top grades. You can very easily get straight A's and still not get the job you want, and instead watch the offer go to somebody else who had far worse grades than you, but who had put in the time to network and meet people. </p>

<p>
[quote]
The MBA coursework is very quantitative and while the "math" itself may not be that high level the course work is extremely difficult.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's quite odd. I have never once ever heard of MBA coursework described as "extremely difficult" or even "difficult". Let's be honest. Most MBA coursework is common sense. In the Harbus, many HBS MBA students have admitted that the courses are, frankly, not that hard, and how they studied far more intensely during undergrad. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Finally, I realize it would be easy to think MBA's aren't too bright because some might not understand simple calculus. I originally had that view, coming from a rigorous engineering background. I am continually surprised by just how smart my classmates are, even those who don't know/remember calculus.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Here's what 2 Harvard MBA's (now a married couple) told me just a couple of weeks ago. The top 5-10% of the HBS MBA's are indeed brilliant. But the vast majority, while not stupid, are not exactly brilliant either. And the fact is, you don't have to be a genius to get into or complete the HBS MBA. The coursework is, frankly, not that hard.</p>

<p>
[quote]
After all, most MBA students are trying to get the job of their choice, yet many employers don't care very much about grades. Those jobs require networking.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I-banks and consulting companies definitely care about grades (i understand that some schools don't disclose grades though). Grades were definitely important to the vast majority of students I know (real estate not so much).</p>

<p>
[quote]
Most MBA coursework is common sense. In the Harbus, many HBS MBA students have admitted that the courses are, frankly, not that hard, and how they studied far more intensely during undergrad.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>My only knowledge of HBS student work ethic comes from this forum and what I have seen of them in challenges. So, I can not reasonably speak to HBS specifically.</p>

<p>Even so, it's hard to imagine that it is that easy. In my school, I had 3 10+ pg cases, 3 midterms, and 2HW assignments all due the same week (and it's not like we received these in advance, nor would he have had much time to complete them in advance had we the opportunity). Some of my buddies had the additional burden of competing in a challenge out of state the weekend prior to that midterm week.</p>

<p>
[quote]
"Most MBA coursework is common sense."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I guess we agree to disagree. I come from a business background, and agree that much of the class discussions and class instruction is common sense. However, my experience has been that the exams and the assignments are quite difficult, as are the competitions, many of which all-nighters.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The top 5-10% of the HBS MBA's are indeed brilliant. But the vast majority, while not stupid, are not exactly brilliant either.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is completely subjective. What is brilliant? 180 IQ? My IQ is in the top percentile of the entire population. However, there are definitely people smarter than me in business school. There are also students who are not as smart as me, but everyone I know is pretty damn smart and on average they are DEFINITELY far more intelligent than the dozens of engineers that I know.</p>

<p>JD is harder to get and will probably net you a higher salary if you do well. That being said however what makes an MBA so attractive is the ability to 1) make an insane amount of money (think 10's of millions compared to 2 million/yr a biglaw partner would make. It'll be harder to get that $$ in business as opposed to law but there's a much greater upside if you get it) and 2) flexibility....jd --> law, whereas an mba can go into a vast variety of fields.</p>

<p>SAKKY- The GMAT is more than a screening tool, it's an IQ test. Mensa accepts 95th percentile for admissions, equating to ~710 and an IQ of ~135 or top 2%. That being said, your friends have are right, not everyone is brilliant but EVERYONE is EXTREMELY sharp. Again, take someone with a 115 IQ and put them in Harvard MBA Finance and I'm guessing the coursework isn't going to be easy. Everything is relative. My friend is getting his PhD in Finance from Cornell and he says he isn't "mathy" enough for most of his peers, this is despite a 750 GMAT and 1450 GRE (perfect math) and having an MS in chemistry. People tend to get blinders and compare things relative to their peers.</p>

<p>One last thought- Harvard or not, if at least some of the courses aren't hard, the school is really not doing a good job. There is a lot in a good MBA that isn't even close to common sense...reference some of the more stochastic subjects like revenue management and Black-Scholes calculations. It takes literally hours and hours to sift through case study data, summarize it, problem solve and prepare power point presentations. Classes like economics and satistics aren't "common sense", or the population in general would have a clue how the fed operates, the concequences of monetary and fiscal policy, etc..Ugh, come to think of it, finance was a real B I T C H. And this is from someone with calc 3, linear algebra, stats and even a semester of quantum mechanics.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I-banks and consulting companies definitely care about grades (i understand that some schools don't disclose grades though). Grades were definitely important to the vast majority of students I know (real estate not so much).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>See above. Most I-banks and consulting firms hire from their summer intern pool, for which they can see only a limited number of grades anyway. Many of their summer interns (who do well) will leave with a full-time offer in hand, making the 2nd year grades irrelevant (as long as they pass). </p>

<p>
[quote]
Even so, it's hard to imagine that it is that easy. In my school, I had 3 10+ pg cases, 3 midterms, and 2HW assignments all due the same week (and it's not like we received these in advance, nor would he have had much time to complete them in advance had we the opportunity). Some of my buddies had the additional burden of competing in a challenge out of state the weekend prior to that midterm week.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And how typical was that week exactly? After all, I highly doubt that you are having "3 midterms" every single week. </p>

<p>Besides, difficulty is measured by not how much work you are assigned, but what happens if you *don't do them<a href="or%20do%20poorly">/i</a>. You said it yourself: a grade below a C is almost never given out. Hence, you have the assurance of knowing that as long as you put in a bare minimum of effort, you are going to pass. Maybe not with top grades, but you will pass. And like I said, grades don't really matter that much anyway. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Well, I guess we agree to disagree. I come from a business background, and agree that much of the class discussions and class instruction is common sense. However, my experience has been that the exams and the assignments are quite difficult, as are the competitions, many of which all-nighters.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, the question is: *what happens if you just do poorly in those difficult exams/assignments? * The answer, apparently, is not much. You end up with a C. Honestly, so what? </p>

<p>
[quote]
This is completely subjective. What is brilliant? 180 IQ? My IQ is in the top percentile of the entire population. However, there are definitely people smarter than me in business school. There are also students who are not as smart as me, but everyone I know is pretty damn smart and on average they are DEFINITELY far more intelligent than the dozens of engineers that I know.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>A strange response, for what you said is ALSO subjective. It all gets down to how you define 'smart'. </p>

<p>But I'll put it to you this way. I think the vast vast majority of all HBS MBA's would freely admit that, if put into, say, the first year of the Harvard Economics PhD program (which is the weeder year), they will do extremely poorly. Or, if you think that that's unfair, then, similarly, if the HBS MBA's were put into the first year of any of the HBS doctoral programs, again, they would do extremely poorly. I can tell you of one guy who recently graduated as a Baker Scholar from the HBS MBA program (meaning he graduated in the top 5% of the program), and then entered the HBS doctoral program, who recently said that he had never actually feared failing any of his classes he had ever taken in his entire life until he entered the first year of the doctoral program. {While he didn't fail, he barely passed.} </p>

<p>
[quote]
Again, take someone with a 115 IQ and put them in Harvard MBA Finance and I'm guessing the coursework isn't going to be easy.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, really? Would you like to see some of the cases they do in the HBS finance course (and the course is all cases)? They're not that hard. </p>

<p>Now, again, I agree that they are hard to get a top grade in. But like I said, you don't really need to get a top grade. Numerous employers - even financial services employers - don't care very much about your grades. As a case in point, I know another guy who also graduated as a Baker Scholar (and hence had excellent grades, having won both first and second year honors) but who didn't get the job he wanted (in a particular hedge fund), as that HF firm instead hired other guys who had far worse grades (i.e. hadn't earned honors in either of their years). That's because those other guys 'played the game' better: in that deliberately chose to spend less time studying and worrying about grades and more time doing the networking and socializing it took to get a meeting with that HF. That first guy couldn't even get a meeting. </p>

<p>
[quote]
One last thought- Harvard or not, if at least some of the courses aren't hard, the school is really not doing a good job. There is a lot in a good MBA that isn't even close to common sense...reference some of the more stochastic subjects like revenue management and Black-Scholes calculations.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But you don't need to know that stuff! That is to say, if you just want to complete your MBA, you don't really need to know how, say, Black-Scholes is derived. You just need to know how to use it, which, frankly, isn't that hard. </p>

<p>Let me put it to you this way. I got the latest copy of the Journal of Finance right here on my desk. Now, honestly, how many MBA's can understand any of its articles? Heck, how many can even get past the first few equations of the model in any of the articles? I'm going to go with 'zero' and I don't think I will be far off. The fact is: they don't NEED to know it. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Classes like economics and satistics aren't "common sense", or the population in general would have a clue how the fed operates,

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Again, you don't need to know that stuff at any serious level. Again, let me give you an example. How many MBA's know of General Equilibrium Theory? Forget about actually trying to compute it, I'm just talking about simply knowing what GE even is, that is, how it accords with the Fundamental Theorems of Welfare Economics, and, say, examples of multiple equilibria? Or, more simply, how many MBA's can actually explain what exactly is the difference between Marshallian Demand vs. Hicksian demand, and how are they related? Again, I'm going to go with zero MBA students, and I don't think I will be far off. That's because, again, as an MBA student, you just don't need to know that stuff. But these are the fundamental tenets of economics. </p>

<p>You want to talk statistics? Ok. How many MBA students actually use instrumental variables and two-stage least squared (2SLS) analyses to establish causation? How about tobit regressions to account for data censoring? How many compensate for heteroskedasticity? Heck, how many of them even know what these terms mean?. That's true statistics, but again, you don't really need to know that stuff if you're an MBA student.</p>

<p>Let's be perfectly honest. The stuff they teach you in MBA courses is, frankly, quite low-level. To be perfectly blunt, most reasonably intelligent undergrads can do that stuff. And in fact, some business schools teach MBA students and undergrads together in the same courses...* and find that the undergrads actually do better than the MBA students*. To name one school: Wharton found this to be true (although it almost certainly had to do with the grade nondisclosure policy that covers MBA students, but not undergrads). Nevertheless, it demonstrates that MBA work is not harder than undergrad work.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I think the vast vast majority of all HBS MBA's would freely admit that, if put into, say, the first year of the Harvard Economics PhD program (which is the weeder year), they will do extremely poorly. Or, if you think that that's unfair, then, similarly, if the HBS MBA's were put into the first year of any of the HBS doctoral programs, again, they would do extremely poorly.

[/quote]
Well, in this thread, the relevant comparison is HLS. And by reputation, at least, sakky's example would hold.</p>

<p>
[quote]
A strange response, for what you said is ALSO subjective. It all gets down to how you define 'smart'.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That was my point.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Again, the question is: what happens if you just do poorly in those difficult exams/assignments? The answer, apparently, is not much. You end up with a C. Honestly, so what?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Students are required to have a 3.0 GPA at my school.</p>

<p>
[quote]
See above. Most I-banks and consulting firms hire from their summer intern pool, for which they can see only a limited number of grades anyway. Many of their summer interns (who do well) will leave with a full-time offer in hand, making the 2nd year grades irrelevant (as long as they pass).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I'm not denying that the 2nd year is easier. However, the people I know with IB internship offers in hand are still staying at school 15+ hrs a day.</p>

<p>BTW, why the hell would a top applicant want to limit their options to the company that they interned with? Many of the top applicants do not accept the offer with the company they interned with and in order to keep their options open will need to keep high grades.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Again, the question is: what happens if you just do poorly in those difficult exams/assignments? The answer, apparently, is not much. You end up with a C. Honestly, so what?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, you won't be getting a job/internship with McKinsey, BCG, or other top consulting companies. You won't be getting a job with top i-bank and you won't be getting a job with a company like Google. Does networking matter? Absolutely, but for those who don't have family hookups, top employers are looking for the total package because most candidates from top business schools are "networking."</p>

<p>Sakky,
Stop being pedantic and use some common sense. People at top schools are smart. Period. They're pre screened to be both smart and driven. They will not find difficult classes as hard as the average college student find them.</p>

<p>Yes, they won't find the courses as hard.</p>

<p>They also won't be motivated to do as well. </p>

<p>The Wharton Case Sakky uses above shows it best: "Smarter" students achieving lower grades than undergrads, simply because the grades don't matter as much.</p>

<p>True, but I bet the ability level of the grads and undergrads are about equal.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Students are required to have a 3.0 GPA at my school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Not at others. And, in this particular case, not at HBS, which was the topic at hand. </p>

<p>More expansively, it's hard to even get below a B in most MBA courses. Let's talk about the MIT Sloan School. Maybe 1 person in the entire class of 80 will get a C. And even so, getting a single C is hardly fatal, as you need a 3.5/5 to graduate (where a C=3.0). </p>

<p>
[quote]
Well, I'm not denying that the 2nd year is easier. However, the people I know with IB internship offers in hand are still staying at school 15+ hrs a day.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>As do I. But the question is: what are they doing there?. Are they really studying? Unlikely. They are networking, socializing, participating in EC's, and so forth. </p>

<p>
[quote]
BTW, why the hell would a top applicant want to limit their options to the company that they interned with?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh, I don't know, perhaps because the offer is exploding, as many are? Or, if the offer itself isn't exploding, often times the signing bonus is. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Many of the top applicants do not accept the offer with the company they interned with and in order to keep their options open will need to keep high grades.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, again, no they don't. Like I said, and you have agreed, numerous employers don't care about MBA grades. They care far more about relevant work experience and knowledge of the field. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Well, you won't be getting a job/internship with McKinsey, BCG, or other top consulting companies. You won't be getting a job with top i-bank and you won't be getting a job with a company like Google.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You won't? Interesting, because that doesn't explain all those people who got mediocre grades who got offers in precisely those sorts of companies. How did they do it? Again: summer internships led to full-time offers, which made their grades irrelevant. In fact, I was just talking to a guy who was literally laughing at how little effort he put in in this particular semester (the final semester of his 2nd year) because he has literally been traveling for most of the semester and how he suspects his grades will be totally trashed and how he doesn't care. Yet where is he going to be in a few months? McKinsey. The way he sees it is quite simple: this may be the last time he will have in decades to actually travel and enjoy life for an extended period of time, and that's clearly worth doing rather than trying to squeeze out better grades in a semester that nobody will ever care about anyway. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Sakky,
Stop being pedantic and use some common sense. People at top schools are smart. Period. They're pre screened to be both smart and driven. They will not find difficult classes as hard as the average college student find them.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Tomskawsky, stop being pedantic and use some common sense. The question is not whether those people at top MBA programs are smart. The question is whether the coursework is challenging. And the truth is, it is not. </p>

<p>Consider what the academic literature says. One paper described in great detail the cultural aspects of the 'Wharton Walk' - a famous pasttime of Wharton MBA students of drinking at at least 10 bars in a single night - and sadly noted "This is what happens in business schools. Most students simply get drunk." (Crainer & Dearlove 1999). Similarly, business schools have been widely noted for their grade inflation (Kuh & Shouping 1999) and hence "...Every student who wants to (and avoids financial and emotional distress) will graduate. At Wharton, for example, less than one percent of the students fail any given course, on average... and the probability of failing more than one course is almost zero. In effect, business schools have developed elaborate and expensive grading systems to ensure that even the least competent and least interested get credit..." (Armstrong 1995). Furthermore, for the purposes of this particular topic, class standing and grades have been found to be far more important in terms of employer weighting when it comes to law school graduates rather than MBA graduates (Pfeffer & Fong 2002). The strong implication is that HBS is a significantly easier environment than is HLS. This contention is further reinforced by my own personal discussions with several people who are pursuing or had pursued JD/MBA's at Harvard and who have charactered their business school semesters as literally "vacations" compared to the semesters when they were at the law school.</p>

<p>
[quote]
More expansively, it's hard to even get below a B in most MBA courses. Let's talk about the MIT Sloan School. Maybe 1 person in the entire class of 80 will get a C. And even so, getting a single C is hardly fatal, as you need a 3.5/5 to graduate (where a C=3.0).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It obviously varies by school, but i'm talking about 10% get a C, but a B- is enough to bring one's GPA below a 3.0.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Oh, I don't know, perhaps because the offer is exploding, as many are? Or, if the offer itself isn't exploding, often times the signing bonus is.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It just seems pretty desperate to me. You are abut to graduate from a top school and are already at the mercy of some large firm (or to say it in simpler terms, you are already that firm's b@#$). Have fun with that (and the rest of your career), but if you bust your a$$ in business school you should have dozens of possible employment options, many of which shouldn't even involve working for someone else (i mention this because if you are scared of not landing a job...why? I don't get it)</p>