<p>My S is interested in Caltech, I prefer him go to Columbia. He thinks Columbia's science program is mediocre. Would anybody help sorting this out? I believe Columbia's science is also very good. How does the bio program compared to Caltech? Premed placement rate in both schools? Thanks!</p>
<p>cadad,</p>
<p>My S chose Caltech over Columbia. I cannot tell you exactly how the Bio programs compare but Caltech's overall prestige may be higher. Having said this, I would look well beyond the quality of specific programs. </p>
<p>We live in NJ and my S attended Columbia's Science Honors program for a couple of years. That gave him a partial view of life at Columbia. He will tell you the environment (size, location, intensity, housing...) is very different. For that matter Caltech is very different from any other place I have seen. I would recommend to look at the overall experience first, and within that context compare the Bio programs.</p>
<p>The issues of med school admissions and Caltech has been discussed extensively in this board (see for example <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=173471%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=173471</a>.) The majority opinion seems to be that Caltech tough grading and comparatively lower GPAs penalize students that want to go to professional schools (not PhD programs)</p>
<p>I hope this helps.</p>
<p>cadad -- Congrats on your son's choices! Columbia's sciences are certainly very good, and CalTech's are excellent. But these schools are so different in every way, I agree with artiesdad that you just have to go beyond looking at individual departments and med school placements.</p>
<p>Is your son absolutely sure of his future major? Does he have any interest in a humanities based core curriculum? Does he want to be in New York City? Does he want to be among students who are all science-driven, or does he want to meet more different types of people? How important is it to him to have female students around and a dating scene? What does he like to do for fun? How large a student body makes him comfortable or uncomfortable?</p>
<p>If he is someone who lives and breathes biology and intends a future in research, it would be hard to argue against CalTech. But if he changes his mind, or wants to add a humanities major or concentration to his pre-med studies, he could do that much more easily at Columbia.</p>
<p>Thanks, that helps!</p>
<p>caltech is more for the science nerd type. columbia is better for the intellectual, well-rounded type. the sciences at columbia and all of the ivies are solid. you're not going to find the science geniuses that you'd find at caltech, but i can say from experience that a lot of the pure science majors at columbia college are pretty damn smart. for a more normal college experience, columbia is the way to go. as sac points out, it basically boils down to what your son is looking for in college.</p>
<p>My S kept on thinking that the Columbia science program can not beat Caltech, which might be true. I am concerned about the general low GPA in Caltech and might affect the chance when applying medical school. Besides Caltech seems to be the place for extremely bright students. My S works very hard to have good stats.. I am afraid he won't be able to survive in Caltech.</p>
<p>cadad -- I'm sure CalTech would not have admitted him if they didn't think he could do the work. Surviving is different from excelling. At both places, students are tossed into a very high achieving pool, and the bar is raised. The students who were always the "best" have to come to terms with this. </p>
<p>The workload at CalTech is notorious. And, there is more grade inflation at Columbia than CalTech. But, from my observation in the science and math classes, that means that there are few C's, not that A's don't require a lot of work to earn. And, someone who doesn't especially like the humanities -- or really want to be required to take Columbia's heavy dose of them -- might find it difficult to ace those, even if the science classes come naturally. So, it's impossible to anticipate how he would do at one school versus the other.</p>
<p>Can he spend some time at both places before he decides? At least at CalTech, staying over in the dorm, going to classes, not necessarily during prefrosh events. It would be good for him to see what the stress level and expectation level really is there. </p>
<p>If the only reason he's not choosing Columbia is because he has an idea it's not good enough, you can certainly assure him that it is and that he can get into top med schools or grad schools from there. If he's leaning towards CalTech because its unique atmosphere and opportunities really appeal to him, and you feel he's making an informed decision, then more power to him. It takes a special student to be that motivated and directed, and CalTech is a great reward for his high school efforts. He'll work like crazy, but if it interests him, I'd guess he will survive.</p>
<p>cadad</p>
<p>I would not be worried about your son not surviving at Caltech because he is not smart enough. As sac said, they would not have admitted him if they didn't think we was smart enough.</p>
<p>From what I have seen in my S, survival at Tech is not an issue of intelligence (which is probably a given in all the admitted students) but hard work, perseverance and accepting that a big sacrifice is required in order to get the big prize (the Caltech diploma.)</p>
<p>Sac and Artiesdad,</p>
<p>Thanks so much for your input. My S is a quiet person who does not like social too much. During his high school years, he rarely parties. He embraces science with passion. He details every questions and often annoys his teachers because he asks too many questions. He gets good grade after spending hours of studying but yet to find his classmates get about the same grade witout sweat. He is a very dedicated student with extreme perseverance. He can submit 50 pages of science paper while other students do not submit more than 10 pages.</p>
<p>He is pretty outdated with the current event. He does not like politics at all. He likes languages a lot, but hates every class which requires presentation. </p>
<p>That said, Caltech seems his type. Four years after, he will still be same old himself. He won't have chance to turn himself into another person who can articulate his thought in public, not being able to join discussion and show his intellectual side. </p>
<p>I asked him, if you choose between </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Stanford and Columbia, which would you choose?
" Stanford"
because Stanford is well rounded. Stanford has huge grade inflation.</p></li>
<li><p>Columbia and Caltech
" Caltech"
Because he hates cold weather and Columia seems to emphasize too much on humanity.</p></li>
<li><p>Princeton and Caltech?
" Princeton"
More prestige? maybe..</p></li>
</ol>
<p>But Princeton is in NJ, the weather is very cold too. </p>
<p>I smell something fishy. The issue might not be the weather, not the science excellence . I kind of sense he does not think Columbia is a top Ivy. People always say HYP, but not HYPC.. and that bothers him. If he can accept Princeton, then he should be able to accept Columbia because they are all the same type of well rounded schools.</p>
<p>He attended classes while visiting Columbia, UPenn, Brown.. The problem is he can not really tell how the class is because the students do not ask questions. He can only conclude he likes the teacher or not, but no way of knowing how intelligent other kids are, what kind of test will be expected.</p>
<p>Only two weeks left for decision!!</p>
<p>cadad,</p>
<p>I understand the time pressure, my daughter is down to her last two schools and we know she only has two more weeks to pick one!</p>
<p>Let me share a bit more of what I have seen from my son. It may give you a bit more information about Caltech although I am not sure it will help in the final decision since it is only about one of the schools.</p>
<p>When my S left HS he had the label of Math/science "guru." He was the go-to-guy if you had questions or needed help in those subjects. It took only a few days at Caltech for him to realize that was not going to be his role in Pasadena. There were many other students smarter than him. I imagine this happens to a vast majority of the freshmen.</p>
<p>I mention this because of your comment about other students getting the same grades as you son. This can go in one of several ways. From the point of view of competition it is not an issue. Because of the breadth and depth of the core, not too many students can be the best at everything. Instead it is very likely you son will find his niche and be able to do his part in the collaborative environment that Caltech inspires (maybe demands is a better word).</p>
<p>Regarding the amount of work, that is hard to tell because HS standards are so lax. Chances are you son is doing a much better job than the other students but the bar is set too low. That will not happen at Caltech. His ability to do a thorough job will come in handy although I have heard from my S that in order to make the workload manageable they have to learn to choose where to invest their efforts. It is not clear you can go all out on every task.</p>
<p>Regarding your comment about your son being able to remain the same person after four years at Caltech, I am not sure I agree. For one, I am pretty sure he will have to articulate his thoughts and position even if only in a small group. In the broader community he may also have to present to larger audiences. For example, there is SURF day in the fall, when every student that did a SURF in the summer has to present his/her findings. There is even a speaking competition associated with SURF Day.</p>
<p>A quite personality and lack of interest in socializing is not uncommon at Caltech and the school has the support environment for that kind of person. My son was a bit more outgoing when he went in, but even there I have noticed a change in him. He has become more outspoken and better able to take on leadership positions. One of the things that surprised me about Caltech was the wide variety students it accommodates. Granted, they all share a common trait (passion for math and science) but that set aside you can probably find as broad a range of interests and behaviours as you can imagine. The surprise for me was to see this in a 900 student population.</p>
<p>My last comment is about the "fishy" responses, particularly ranking Princeton>Caltech>Columbia. This is indeed a prestige-based ranking. If he is placing Caltech above Columbia because of the prestige and the weather there is a danger. Normally I would say that a student that has been accepted to any two top schools cannot go wrong. This is not the case when Caltech is involved. Attending Caltech can be the wrong decision. In fact, every years students come to that realization the hard way.</p>
<p>I sympathize! A week from the deadline, our son was "down" to deciding between four schools. He visited one on Monday and eliminated it, eliminated another on Thursday, we made out a check on Friday morning, tore it up Friday night. Saturday (deadline) we made him stand at line at the post office and hand the envelope to the clerk.</p>
<p>In terms of prestige, two schools he turned down were higher on the rankings you cite than Columbia. And, he went in thinking he'd be a physics major. We don't think the prestige differential, to the extent it exists, at this level matters, as long as it is a place that gives you opportunities, and that sends its students on to good graduate programs. Now, the weather is an issue. But, my California kid turned down the sunshine, moans and groans through Januaries and Februaries, and still survives.</p>
<p>Two issues you haven't mentioned: distance from home. Assuming you are in California, this is a challenge, especially for a quiet kid who might not make friends easily. We have a close relative in NYC and my kid spent a lot of time there first year, less so this year. I think it made a big difference for him to have that. The second is whether or not your son enjoys the humanities at all. He will have to take a lot of them at Columbia. I don't think anyone should go there without looking at the reading list for the core classes and really understanding the requirements, which involve a lot of literature, philosophy, music, art, language, etc. Though my kid is more of a quantitative type, he has also always enjoyed humanities and for him the core was a major attraction, not something he had to endure in order to go to Columbia.</p>
<p>Though I understand your anxiety that your son's decision might not be made on the best basis, the fact is they all make their decisions on whatever basis a 17 or 18 year old makes decisions. Could be where it's easiest to get fake ids, where the girls look "hotter", where their student host seemed like the nicest guy, whether it was sunny or rainy when they visited campus, whether they liked the architecture or the food...whatever academic reason they give their parents. Maybe your son sees himself at Caltech. Based on your description of his work habits and his thorough immersion in science, maybe it is the right place for him. I just don't think that whether or not his gpa will suffer there vs Columbia is really predictable. If he goes to Columbia and hates the classes, feels he's somewhere second rate, is overwhelmed by the social scene, he is not likely to do as well as he would at CalTech, surrounded by other people who may understand him better. He will grow as a person just by going to college. And, there is grad school if he wants to try his geographic wings. </p>
<p>As to the issue of getting used to not being the student everyone else turns to for answers, all our guys have to get used to that wherever they go. It's another league. Get my kid started on the Hungarians or Ukranians or Russians in his honors math class at Columbia. He did fine. But he now recognizes extraordinary gifts when he sees them. There are plenty of brilliant kids at Columbia, many coming out of outstanding NYC science/math high schools. Figuring out how to do your best without being "the best" is part of what college is about, and a very good life skill, in my humble opinion -- though not always painless. In some ways, it might even be easier to admit you are not the top of the top at Caltech, which gets the top of the top of the top when it comes to fields like math and physics.</p>
<p>Good luck over the next few weeks!</p>