Direct Admit vs. Accelerated vs. Traditional

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
1

<p>DD is a high school senior who wants to go to Medical school. Her grades, test scores and ECs will make her competitive with even the highly selective colleges and programs. She has been working as a nurse's aide for a couple years, volunteering at a hospital and shadowed a physician for an afternoon.</p>

<p>At this point, we would like advice on the pros and cons of various options that she has:
1. Direct Admit programs that guarantee admission to Medical School (Northwestern, Case Western Reserve, Univ. of Cincinnati, Univ. of Louisville)
2. Accelerated programs that shorten the time required to complete undergraduate and medical school to seven years, or less (Univ. of Kentucky, NEOUMED)
3. Traditional route of undergraduate degree, perhaps as a Biomedical Engineering major (Vanderbilt, Duke), then medical school</p>

<p>Any thoughts or personal experiences with similar decisions would be appreciated.</p>

2

<p>As I posted on a previous thread, in general, the direct/combined programs exist so that med schools can snag kids out of high school who would probably be too good for them after college (e.g. I believe Northwestern is the only top 20 med school with a direct or combined program). It’s certainly nice to skip the med school admissions process and I don’t think any of them actually lock you in so you can often still apply out. Some make you forfeit your spot if you do so make sure you know exactly what you’re signing up for.</p>

<p>I would advise against accelerated. The CC rumor mill says those kids often struggle more/feel more unprepared for the 1st year of medical school and my personal opinion is why give up a year of college.</p>

3

<p>Just my $0.02: I went the traditional route, and it worked out well–I had a fantastic time in undergrad, I go to a med school I really love (most of the time…), I got to do the things I want to do, etc etc. So, obviously the traditional route can work out.</p>

<p>But, quite honestly, if I could do it all over again and have a spot in a combined (not accelerated) program, I think I would take it. Applying to med school is stressful, expensive, and time consuming. Sure, it’s kind of exciting too–but mostly, it was pretty stressful. I went to my state flagship and currently attend its medical school. There used to be a BS/MD program here (the currently M1s are the last class). Some of my classmates who are part of this program were often pretty snotty during UG (bragging about not needing the MCAT, choosing the easiest sections of classes so they could coast thru UG, not doing research or clinical stuff or volunteering, etc)–so to that end, I’d HIGHLY recommend that even if she chooses to do the BS/MD thing, she still act like a traditional premed (and hey, it’s a good way to figure out if this field is right for you anyway!). If for no other reason then her friends won’t be annoyed with her :)</p>

<p>As for accelerated programs, there’s one of those in my state too, and some of my friends from HS chose to attend; there’s even a few kids in my med school class who transferred out of the accelerated program. It’s set up as 1.5yr UG + 4.5yr med (with the last semester UG/first semester med line kinda blurred–so closer to 2+4). My viewpoint on it is this: the kids in the accelerated program in my state tend to do poorer on boards, fewer of them get their top choice of residency, and fewer of them end up in highly specialized fields. I would NEVER choose to sacrifice a few years of UG (which were awesome years in terms of making friends, growing up, exploring my interests, etc) in order to get to med school sooner–and be statistically less likely to end up in a field I want to practice in.</p>

<p>Knowing what I do about UG and med school, here are some things I think would be important to look at in a BS/MD program:</p>

<p>1) What, specifically, are the requirements of the program? Academic? Extracurricular? Does it go year-round, or is it more traditional?
2) Can I apply out? Are there any consequences?
3) What resources are available? Research? Mentors?
4) What’s the med school like? How big is it? What’s financial aid like? What do the current students think of their school? How is the preclinical curriculum structured? How are the clinical years structured? What’s the exam structure? Do I get any breaks? What’s the school’s mission? What kind of doctors is it wanting to train (research? Clinical? Primary care?)?</p>

<p>There are a variety of threads about how to build a list of med schools; I think GAMOM2012 or mom2colleges started them. I remember posting some more in-depth thoughts about what to look for in a med school–I think that would be relevant for you too!</p>

<p>Another thing to think about is what her long-term goals are, and how might that affect her med school thoughts–ie, if she wants to be a fantastic clinician who runs an internal medicine clinic in your community, then going to UG and med school in your state would make sense. If she’s got her sights set on being the next Surgeon General, then a more prestigious academic pedigree might be useful.</p>

4

<p>I think another big thing is to apply. It’s always best to apply, have options, then ask questions. Having a guaranteed spot in any program is rarely a negative, especially as the above poster pointed out. Being premed is expensive and time-consuming (in terms of missing school to fly out for interview dates when applying).</p>

<p>If she is thinking premed, I’d say apply away! Especially because she might not get in to said programs or have the choice of picking.</p>

5

<ol>
<li>and 2. are the same. The difference is 1. is not accelerated and 2. is accelerated. My D. has experience with all three, although her experience with 2. is limited to just being accepted. She applied to several combined bs/md’s both accelerated and non-accelerated, was accepted to 3 and choose non-accelerated that allowe to apply out. He experience was great as it combined the best of both bs/md and a regular route. And to top it all, she ended up going to UG that was a perfect match for her personality and a wide range of interests, including “potential” ones, the new experiences that she was planning to try in UG. Perfect match is a key to success in UG, much more than anything else. D. was the only one who applied out of her bs/md and was accepted to 3 additional Med. Schools. One thing for sure, sitting at MCAT is much easier when you know that you need only 27, that alone calm her down to receive much higher than 27. The very decent MCAT pushed her to think to apply out. The second point is going to interviews knowing that you already have a spot, yes, you are already a Medical student, is all different animal. It is a huge boost in confidence.<br>
BTW, she was on full tuition Merit at UG, so we are paying her tuition at Med. School. Another BTW is that she is currently at med. School that originally rejected her pre-interview from their bs/md. It was her dream school back in HS.
No regrets here at all.</li>
</ol>

6

<p>Thanks so much for the great input - you have each been helpful. The variety of responses is also interesting - one positive experience with Direct Admission and one positive experience with traditional route. kristin offered some great points to consider.</p>

<p>I especially appreciate MiamiDAP’s comments about a positive experience at state flagship. “Match” is important, but difficult to ascertain when dealing with a 17 year old. It is tempting to simply default to the most prestigious opportunity, especially when spending too much time on CC. DD is NMSF and would have an automatic full ride to a number of Direct Admit programs (if accepted). The traditional route would likely end up in some debt even before starting Med School. She is wisely taking this into account in her decision-making.</p>

<p>I also like CookieCream’s advice to apply broadly. DD is definitely in favor of going this route and has picked ten schools to which she is in various stages of applying. Since the Direct Admit programs typically involve two applications, she has considerable stress right now but it should make the process easier in three or four years. I think this would be especially valuable if she earns some interviews now during the application process.</p>

<p>I searched for Brown’s other threads and was finally able to find other discussions - I hadn’t thought about searching for best pre-med undergraduate schools. Also found the GAMOM2012 thread finally. Oh well, part of learning CC. Thanks for the tips, the other threads are helpful.</p>

7

<p>Best wishes!
Tell your D. that visiting, talking to current students, looking around, getting “the feel” is the most important. She has to respect her own perception much more that any rank or others opinions. The are no general rule here. She should feel at home for 4 years, everything else will fall into place. Even her own perception might change after closer look which has happened to my D. in both cases, deciding on UG and deciding on Med. school. So, any advice here is really secondary to any of you D’s personal preferences.</p>

8

<p>If she has offers to direct admit programs will full rides, I really can’t imagine a scenario where I would turn this down. (Assuming, of course, I only initially applied to programs that were appealing to me and that I reasonably thought would match my goals and personality.) The idea of educational debt becomes exponentially more real when you are actually accepting loans for $30k+/yr. I think it’s very wise and financially responsible to choose an undergrad school that will allow you to have no educational debt before med school!</p>

9

<p>My D is in her third year at a combined she chose over Cornell. She is very glad she chose this program since she enjoys working with the other kids in this program. She is glad she does not have to take the MCATs and can do research instead of even more shadowing.</p>

<p>I was in premed 35 years ago but did not get in since I had to work and attended a commuter school which did not lend itself to the number of hours needed to get into medical school. I saw first hand the fight for a limited number of A’s, teacher recommendation etc’s and how your fellow students would not work together since it was ever man for himself. I believe cooperation not competition is the best way to learn.</p>

<p>It must be remembered that only 16k applicants get in out of 80k bio and chem majors.That means most schools get about 20 percent into med school. Even schools like Swathmore that have a real acceptance rate of 40 percent count kids up to 10 years post graduation. Unlike many schools that severely limit the kids who get recommendation letters from their premed committee, a few schools do things openly and honestly. (Swarth does not have a combined but an informal postgrad agreement with AMC).</p>

<p>Their are some combines like a couple in the Midwest and Brown in the east that are as hard as HYP to get into. Most other schools are about as difficult as the lower 4 ivies. </p>

<p>As far as the prestige obsessed go, a friend is head of a large hospital department and is over many ivy medical doctors. This friend was a nurse for years but could not get into an American Med school and went to Manilla. Nobody is concerned about the location of her medical school diploma, but she is still the boss and they come to her for advice since she has many years of experience.</p>

<p>The quality of most American med schools is very close unlike colleges and universities so my major consideration would be DEBT LOAD. Many combines offer merit aid not need like the ivies so that would be my consideration. The combines I believe do things more on the level than ivies since they don’t do as much social engineering, care about legacies, athletes, donors etc. They just want their kids in med school to reflect well on the college or university they graduated from. They also accepted all 30 of her AP credits unlike the ivies which will allow her to get a second major in psychology.</p>

<p>IF you are top of med school class the best residencies and fellowships will follow so you don’t want to be paying off your loans until your mid-forties.</p>

10

<p>

Where are you getting this info? in 2011 there was around 23K of Bio majors and 9.8K matriculated for a 42.8% acceptance rate. :o</p>

<p>Overall there were 44K of total applicants with a little over 19K that matriculated.</p>

11

<p>From an upper Ivy admission officer 3.5 years ago. It was confirmed by a poster on CC three years ago who calculated school by school at the largest schools. She did not count physics majors and engineering students and all other majors who also apply to med school. </p>

<p>Where do you think all the DO’s , Chiropractors, Dentists, Research PHD’s, environmental s science<br>
Pharmaceutical sales, medical device sales people come from? </p>

<p>With a couple of new allopathic schools coming on line each year the number of spots is slowly growing but it will not be enough for the new health care law so expect more doctors from overseas.</p>

12

<p>

Maybe if you are counting all Bio majors whether they applied to medical school or not but here is the data from AAMC. See for yourself.</p>

<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/download/161692/data/table18.pdf[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/download/161692/data/table18.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

13

<p>@Kdog, the data you reference is for U.S. Allopathic Medical Schools only.</p>

<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/glossary/[/url]”>https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/glossary/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

14

<p>

Some people just “love” to hear an anecdotal story like this. It is almost like the justice has been served and most people in the room (more people attend a lower tiered school anyway) are happy about this unexpected outcome. (I did not intend to dispute the truth of this story, but you did not mention whether she has been working her tail off to get there.)</p>

<p>Last time I heard about it, the head of UT-SW med school was from either JHU med school or HMS, and Yale College. (It does not mean that one could not get there from a lower tracked school. But for some of the career paths, fair nor not, the name of the school could help.)</p>

<p>

I notice you have capitalized the “IF”. This is the key. Only if you happen to be the shining star who not only happens to have a photographic memory but also is the one who is disciplined to be working 13 hours everyday.</p>

<p>I think the majority of top combined programs (e.g., Rice-Baylor, the NW one - is it HPME?) also cost a fortune for most students there after 8 years, just like most traditional 4-year med schools. It is not like going to a combined program would automatically eliminate the financial concern for most students there. If the total out-of-pocket cost is a big concern, going to ANY college which allows you to pay the least amount or even at almost zero cost, whether it is a combined BS/MD program or not. Since you will be destined to be at the top of med school, you would of course be at the top of your premed classes, ace the MCAT and do great on ECs, no matter what college you choose to attend.</p>

15

<p>

True but to take ALL bio majors and to imply that only 20% get into medical schools is misleading. Many bio majors have no intent of ever applying into medical school and go on to a variety of other careers. Granted, many schools may limit LOR’s or use other methods to discourage students from applying but the bottom line is close to 50% that do apply are accepted.</p>

<p>I understand there are valid reasons for wanting to attend a program that guarantees admission to medical school but unless someone is a horrible test taker the above average student who scores well on the MCAT will get in somewhere. I just don’t think that implying only 20% of students that apply the traditional route get in is a valid one.</p>

16

<p>This may be an interesting question: What are the percentage of students in the biology department are premeds at your school? In freshmen year as well as at the end of junior year? (let’s exclude those in the evolution/ecology bio to simplify the discussion here.)</p>

<p>When DS was a frshman, some CCer at his school posted that her estimate was about 80 % for the bio majors (on the molecular bio side.) I still do not know whether this is true as of today. I think she also said that for the biochem majors, it is between 40 % and 60% (I forgot the details.) It was also lower for the BME majors (which is a much smaller department, in his year at least)</p>

<p>In DS’s year, I think there were about 200-210 med school applicants from his college. Slightly over one half were alumni applicants year after year, I think. So only about, say, 95 were applicants applying in the summer between junior and senior. I could not believe 80 of them were bio majors (about 100 molecular bio majors in his class, I think.) I would guess about only 40-50 of the bio majors applying without a gap year (just because bio majors are more dedicated premeds as a group), and the rest applying after at least a gap year.</p>

17

<p>MCAT 2</p>

<p>That "anecdotal story " is my brother’s sister inlaw who I see every Christmas. She was a nurse until about 28, couldn’t get into an American med school no matter what and went to Med school in Manilla . She was department head in a very large hospital and had very famous patients who had severe head trauma from domestic abuse and photos of the victims were in the city’s newspapers. I can’t disclose more because of her right to privacy but it is true and not an urban legend. She told my D to forget neuroscience at the Ivy and take the guarantee at the combined.</p>

18

<p>According to [1,843</a> Accredited Biology Schools](<a href=“http://www.educationnews.org/career-index/biology-schools/]1,843”>http://www.educationnews.org/career-index/biology-schools/) there are 1,843 bio accredited schools with 72,000 bio student enrollment in the last year listed as 2010. </p>

<p>I could not find that post from 3 years ago with the student who I believed was from China who calculated number of the bio and chem majors at hundreds of the top schools in the US. I used to read the combined, Ivy League and " little Ivy " forums and “accepted” forums at the time.</p>

19

<p>[1,843</a> Accredited Biology Schools](<a href=“http://www.educationnews.org/career-index/biology-schools/]1,843”>http://www.educationnews.org/career-index/biology-schools/)</p>

20

<p>Raycmr,</p>

<p>I can’t tell if you’re ignorant or deliberately lying. The number of schools that offer biology or the number of biology students should not be used as a denominator for medical school competitiveness. There are lots of students at these schools with no desire or drive to go to medical school.</p>

<p>Should I give the anecdote about how I was told to avoid the combined programs and am at a top 20 MD/PhD? Should I give the anecdotes about all the department heads at my hospital from “brand name” schools? Mcat 2 was never denying the validity of your story, only the fact that it can be taken as dogma that school name means nothing.</p>

<p>That being said, I agree with kristin that a free ride at a combined program is very hard to turn down, but that’s mainly because free undergrad is hard to turn down. The combined MD is a perk on top of that.</p>