<p>Hi everyone! This is a bit old, but I was wondering what your perspectives are on this opinion. </p>
<p>The</a> American Scholar: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education - William Deresiewicz</p>
<p>He does have a point, you become sheltered at certain institutions. It is great to go to the best school, but it might cause some arrogance. I think that down to earth people who don’t forget where they came from (if they aren’t super rich - which many ivy league students are) won’t graduate thinking they are soo much better than their hs classmates who went to UCLA or UT Austin or Arizona State.</p>
<p>The key is in his third paragraph:
the arrogance is developed before they ever get into the elite school. Students who don’t come from the “traditional” feeder systems don’t usually end up as sheltered, because they experienced the “other side” earlier in life - during their “formative” years. </p>
<p>A person who comes through the fancy prep schools feeling superior, and ends up in the honors program at Arizona State is still going to feel superior, for the same reasons. The student who excelled in a mediocre environment until he got to Harvard isn’t as likely to suffer the same consequence - neither is likely to forget where they came from.</p>
<p>Student A will live in the most expensive dorm on campus, and when he moves off campus, he will have a fancy apartment - chosen because it is owned by a friend of a friend of the family, and the landlord’s property manager will be paid well enough to take care of any issues. Thus he will never need to talk to the plumber, or anyone else if he doesn’t want to - they will do their work while he is at class.</p>
<p>Student B will live in an average dorm, or will find his own off-campus housing, and will still deal with every day necessities.</p>
<p>My freshman daughter has several former HS classmates who are freshman at Yale. After getting together with them during break she noted that they talked about how competitive everything was (one kid did not even try out for the carillon because of this), that they had not only not yet decided a major but had not even been asked to think about selecting one, and that they felt everybody at Yale thought they were the best at whatever they did. She is so happy that she choice to go to a college which does not foster an intellectual elite attitude (something she lived with in HS).</p>
<p>My suggestion is you find one of the numerous long threads on this article.</p>
<p>My short comment is … if the author is socially inept (can’t talk to his plumber) and is an idiot it has nothing to do with where he went to school and everything to do with the fact that he is idiot and socially inept and that would have been true wherever he went to school.</p>
<p>There is a huge selection bias in what people see and experience. Are there ignorant rich snobs at highly selective schools … sure there are … they are a very small minority and they also some at the local state U also. I attended 3 highly selective school and my experience was nothing like the writers and I think the article is pure crap.</p>
<p>Here’s a 300 reply thread … <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/526528-disadvantages-elite-education.html?highlight=disadvantages+of+elite+education[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/526528-disadvantages-elite-education.html?highlight=disadvantages+of+elite+education</a></p>
<p>and a 60 reply thread … <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/684900-its-worth-read-disadvantages-elite-education.html?highlight=disadvantages+of+elite+education[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/684900-its-worth-read-disadvantages-elite-education.html?highlight=disadvantages+of+elite+education</a></p>
<p>^agree and thought this guy could have said in 1/3 the words, what I wasted time reading in its entirety.</p>
<p>If you go into one of these elite schools expecting job training, you’ll be disappointed. If you want that, you’re better off staying local and taking lots of pre-professional courses. These top-tier schools are academic institutions, first and foremost. Go there to get an education. </p>
<p>The best trained business people in my experience come from the best undergrad business schools, eg Wharton and CMU. They might not be my first invites to a cocktail party or a book club, but they are the people I call upon to get things done in a pinch. Some of the smartest people I know are the least practical. Was their education wasted? I don’t think so. These people become academics or teachers or social workers, and that’s fine.</p>
<p>I treasure the education I got at a school usually considered “elite.”. It was not practical and I had to learn a lot of technical stuff on the job or in grad school. It taught me how to,think critically and appreciate the arts.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>English professors are accustomed to using metaphors. As I read it, “can’t talk to the plumber” is a metaphor for an overly-technical, overly-specialized approach to the humanities and social sciences.</p>
<p>Kenneth, it’s really quite sad that you went to a supposedly “elite” school and didn’t learn to “think critically and appreciate the arts.”</p>
<p>No, that’s not what I meant. That school did teach me those things. It didn’t teach me anything terribly practical.</p>
<p>
This guy actually claims that he was unable to make small talk with a plumber. He says that he had no idea what to say to “someone like” the plumber. For him to blame that on his education is pretty absurd. For more details on what I think, see the old threads.</p>
<p>The guy is a good writer, I dont agree with everything in his thesis but he anticipated my objections and addressed them upfront. </p>
<p>If you only got as far as the the Red Sox plumber you missed the point of the essay. </p>
<p>I liked this part, although I am not convinced that that any of these thigns are problems that need to be solved:</p>
<p>*
Long before they got to college, they turned themselves into world-class hoop-jumpers and teacher-pleasers, getting A’s in every class no matter how boring they found the teacher or how pointless the subject, racking up eight or 10 extracurricular activities no matter what else they wanted to do with their time. Paradoxically, the situation may be better at second-tier schools and, in particular, again, at liberal arts colleges than at the most prestigious universities. Some students end up at second-tier schools because they’re exactly like students at Harvard or Yale, only less gifted or driven. But others end up there because they have a more independent spirit. They didn’t get straight A’s because they couldn’t be bothered to give everything in every class. They concentrated on the ones that meant the most to them or on a single strong extracurricular passion or on projects that had nothing to do with school or even with looking good on a college application. Maybe they just sat in their room, reading a lot and writing in their journal. *</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Or to get recruited by elite investment banking and consulting companies that do not recruit at other schools? No need to study anything overtly pre-professional when just the elite name on the diploma means lucrative job opportunities…</p>
<p><a href=“Why Do So Many Ivy League Grads Go to Wall Street? - The Atlantic”>Why Do So Many Ivy League Grads Go to Wall Street? - The Atlantic;
<a href=“http://www.alternet.org/story/155535/the_best_and_the_greediest_ivy_league_students_are_still_heading_to_wall_street[/url]”>http://www.alternet.org/story/155535/the_best_and_the_greediest_ivy_league_students_are_still_heading_to_wall_street</a>
<a href=“http://www.thenation.com/blog/165724/harvard-wall-street-recruiting-ivies#[/url]”>http://www.thenation.com/blog/165724/harvard-wall-street-recruiting-ivies#</a>
<a href=“http://www.careerrookie.com/Article/CB-68-Job-Hunting-What-Does-an-Ivy-League-Degree-Get-You/[/url]”>http://www.careerrookie.com/Article/CB-68-Job-Hunting-What-Does-an-Ivy-League-Degree-Get-You/</a></p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It’s a shame that the curriculum did not include the correct use of punctuation marks.</p>
<p>
I remember this quote from a prior discussion, and I think there’s a germ of truth wrapped in a lot of baloney. Maybe two germs: first, there probably are students at the elites who did what they did in high school just to impress elite schools, and there certainly are extremely lopsided kids who don’t get into the elites–and who probably don’t belong there. But most of the students at the elites are there because they are overall high achievers AND have some specific area or areas in which they have excelled. The idea of not giving everything in every class just doesn’t occur to them. (Note: the phrase “couldn’t be bothered” to me is a red flag, indicating a person who will most likely be a failure in life because he thinks he’s smarter than his teachers, and later, his employers.)</p>
<p>Well, I’ve had one graduate H and now one at P and I will tell you that for my kids going elite has meant becoming enormously more humble, not arrogant. It is a shock to encounter classrooms where no one is lazy, no one is dumb, everyone is pretty exceptional and many are just ridiculous. I think the value is learning to swim in such a fish tank and emerging with a lot of perspective about what is talent, what is intelligence, what is success. </p>
<p>We went ahead and paid the money for our kids to go to these schools because we wanted them NOT to be arrogant.</p>
<p>How much are hoop-jumpers and supervisor-pleasers rewarded in the workplace?</p>
<p>There’s certainly some truth to the sentiments expressed in this article. There is a lot of self-congratulation that goes on (and on and on) at these schools. One of my kids observed that it was a sort of mass hypnosis. And there is an awful lot of packaging that goes on well before kids get to these schools. Those who don’t pay for this or who naively pursue their own paths (not “can’t be bothered” just choose not to preside over the right number of clubs or found their own charity or what have you) often don’t get in. It’s not a matter of merit but of planning. I’ve also seen kids navigate their way carefully through academic waters in order to avoid anything less than the perfect outcome. My sister has commented on both the extreme risk aversion and on the “entitled mediocrity” that she observes when these kids get to the medical school where she is a professor. She, like many of the undegrad professors, are frustrated.</p>
<p>But the article is too extreme. Suggesting that these are the only places where this sort of arrogance flourishes is silly. For one thing, the sheer cost of private education means that there is a great deal of class distinction at a range of these high cost schools. For another, anyone who seriously suggests that the tippy top elite are reserved only for the “best and the brightest” is being willfully disingenuous or is kidding. The institutions have other priorities for admission and are screening not necessarily for the most intelligent or the most creative but for those who bring something else of value to the mix. Perhaps it’s the ability to converse with plumbers (Is this guy for real? My plumber is a retired IBM engineer) or the speed at which the student runs or the place from which he has come or the money he brings in. The point is that there isn’t this great and obvious divide between those who went to UMichigan or UVA or Tufts and Harvard.</p>
<p>I would agree with sewhappy. Some really bright kids who have been at the top of their classes for so long will remain arrogant UNLESS they are placed in an environment with other equally bright kids. Yes, there are some butt-kissing overachievers who have gotten into the ivies. But I think that stereotype is an overgeneralization that is dismissive of the pure talent and ability of the kids who are fortunate enough to get in. Assuming that the only kids who get in are there because of private schools, tutors and prep classes is also unfair.</p>