Displaced Tulane Students at Harvard Seeking to Stay

Parents Forum
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<p>“I don’t feel any identity with Tulane,” said visiting freshman Chelsea M. Grimes. “I just feel like it’s a terrible burden to place on us. We’ve adjusted to college life here at Harvard.</p>

<p>I laughed out loud at this! A "terrible burden?" Trying have a child with cancer. Or being a refugee. Or, like some of the students I volunteer to tutor, try seeing your family chopped up with machetes before your eyes.</p>

<p>A "terrible burden?" Oh, please!</p>

<p>(Edit: Ok, Ok, I already know what some of you are going to think: Now, Nedad, that's unfair; to each his own; this is a terrible burden for some people, just like having a child with cancer is a terrible burden for other people; etc. etc. So I've already said it for you. But I don't believe it for a minute!)</p>

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<p>
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Chances are most of the Tulane students were more than "qualified" to be at the schools they now attend, they've proven they can do the work, and they'd have to pay for the privilege.

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And there are probably a far larger number of more qualified students who were denied admission during the regular application season who would have quite a legitimate beef if these students are allowed to stay and hadn't even applied in the first place.</p>

<p>(I had not seen your most recent reply before I posted, marite: I agree completely. And thanks to the parents of displaced Tulane students who have brought this discussion into very clear focus.)</p>

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<p>garland,
In the 11 months I have been on CC, I have never before this day said (as I recall) anything negative about H, nor "seized opportunities" to do so, etc. (Even though H has been mentioned on many a thread I have joined.) I strongly disagree that "every time H is mentioned," it is "jumped on." Not by myself, not even by a majority of repliers. Therefore, respectfully I do not think your comments apply to me. I've explained why I even replied to concerneddad's remark about campus atmosphere.</p>

<p>However, I do think that if there is the illusion of H being "jumped on," it is only for one reason: that H <em>appears</em> to further the myth of Perfection in its own communications & its PR -- at least by the observations of many a person on CC (parents & students). The "jumping on" may be a Correction -- as they say in The Stock Market. That would just be my interpretation, if there's a general perception that that happens a lot.</p>

<p>The subtext would appear to be not, Is Harvard Evil, but Is Harvard Imperfect?</p>

<p>I need to add that someone just PM'ed me (accurately!) that there's another U that I should have also anonymously referred to. Indeed, that person is correct. I can think of 2 other U's besides H that probably offend more in the Attitude realm than H does. </p>

<p>Anyway, your points are well taken, garland. Thank you.</p>

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<p>mini - "what's the big deal?" </p>

<p>The big deal is that American colleges and universities, through their umbrella organization whose alphabet soup acronym I forget right now, forged a policy to aid the displaced students from the Gulf Coast AND the schools of the Gulf Coast.</p>

<p>This policy defined the status of the students as visiting students to accomplish two things - get them quickly in without the normal application process, and support the Gulf Coast schools by providing them a stable base from which to move forward. Their students would be admitted tuition-free to the host schools and the tuition in effect "donated" to the Gulf Coast schools.</p>

<p>They did this in a heartbeat, saving the students from academic limbo and, for the freshmen especially (imo) allowing them to move on to the next stage of their lives as college students. They did this in good faith.</p>

<p>The big deal is that now students are not acting in good faith. They received the benefit of the policy. Now they're done with that. They don't care what their "renege" might mean to their host schools and the Gulf Coast communities. It's wrong whether it's Harvard, Duke, U Maine or U Denver (with exceptions to the kids with legitimate health issues). </p>

<p>There was an agreement which benefited these kids. It had stipulations. If they didn't want the stipulations, they were not entitled to the benefits. Sure, a few kids here and a few kids there can be absorbed (by the host) and lost (by the Gulf Coast schools) without much effect. But once the agreement is tossed aside - especially by a high-profile school - you create a situation which <em>will</em> compromise the Gulf schools' survival. And will raise the issues that others raise about admissions equity at the host schools.</p>

<p>It's a matter of principle and honor, of doing what is right because it is right. Not looking around to see if you can change the rules of the game to suit yourself and claim you're not hurting anyone else.</p>

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<p>I don't understand why these students should not be allowed to apply as transfers just like any other transfer student. If they are getting As at Harvard, they will likely get in, as they have already proven they can do the work, as opposed to stdents from other colleges who don't have Harvard work to show (okay, if they're transferring from Columbia that's another matter, but you know what I mean.) But most likely not asll the Tulane students would be accepted as transfers.
Am I misunderstanding this, or does the original agreement between Tulane and the other schools say that the other colleges WILL NOT take these students as transfers? If so, that's wrong - they should be allowed to transfer like anyone else. Not given special treatment, but given the opportunity like anyone else. If Harvard or Duke won't take them, and they have good grades at these top schools, they will likely be able to transfer to other top schools. If Harvard agreees to take them ,based on their performance, I don't see what good it does Tulane to have them move back for a semester when they won't be staying anyway.
I do understand that students who applied to Tulane when part of the appeal is obviously New Orleans, may no longer want to go there even if they are not able to transfer to Harvard. Would you want to go to NYU if suddenly there is no New York City?</p>

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<p>They are not asking to transfer like anyone else. They are asking to be allowed to stay because they are there. Transfers would not occur until Fall 2006, if they applied and were accepted.</p>

<p>And, yes, by choosing to attend Harvard on a visiting student basis - tuition free and free of the application process - they gave up the right to ask to simply stay on. </p>

<p>If they want to apply as transfer students after returning to their Gulf Coast school and submitting the normal transfer application, I don't believe there's anything preventing that. This is not what they are asking.</p>

<p>If they did not want to return to Tulane, or New Orleans, they were granted extended (multiply extended) times to withdraw and receive a full refund. Had they done that, they would not have been received as Visiting Students at Harvard or anywhere else. Students such as mom60's D followed this course - they made arrangements to attend another University, having been accepted and paying the tuition. These kids want to have their cake and eat it too.</p>

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<p>Sorry. But I can't raise the ultimate fate of 5 students to the level of principle. It just doesn't matter enough. It isn't clear that Tulane is better off by having them - not with the thousands of extra students they are taking in. The Gulf Coast schools' survival IS compromised by the failure of mutiple institutions, all with lots of money, not coming to their aid as they take in the Xavier and Dillard students. And that's where the real shame lies. So if one wants to talk about principle, take it out on Harvard, or Smith, or Williams, or...well, you get the idea.</p>

<p>As for admissions equity, pffph! There is so precious little to begin with, so there's not a lot to get so exercised about. If it makes one feel better, consider them "developmental admits". The 5 students didn't pay off the Army Corps of Engineers to build flimsy levees, and they hadn't yet taken the required pre-req. in steering hurricanes their way. (If they did, I think they should be awarded full scholarships!) </p>

<p>When the students there (and elsewhere) enrolled this fall, they had no idea what the state of the campus would be in January. They had no idea they'd be sharing the campus with thousands of Xavier and Dillard students indefinitely. They had no idea how bad the damage really turned out to be. It's seems rather harsh to me to hold them to an agreement -- on "principle" -- that they clearly made without anything in the way of informed consent. Again, I don't particularly want to make a case that H. should admit them either - I frankly don't think it matters that much either way.</p>

<p>Yes, it would be "nice" if they returned. Life moves on.</p>

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<p>IMO it's also legit for the kids like mom60's to stay at their new schools -- students who formally withdrew from Tulane and then enrolled, not as visitors, in schools where they had been previously offered spots as regular applicants. In that case there is no breach of faith to Tulane,and the only irregularity to the process that all other kids must conform to is the reactivation of an offer of admission that had been turned down.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Sorry. But I can't raise the ultimate fate of 5 students to the level of principle.

[/quote]
Well, mini, I just don't get this at all. Principle and honor are matters of individual character. I am speaking of the principle and honor, or lack thereof, of these individuals who decide they will take the benefits of an agreement but will not abide by the inconvenient elements of the agreement.</p>

<p>It's easy to spout the Big Principle when it doesn't require action on your part.</p>

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<p>But what's the principle? I don't see it. It's not like they agreed to go back to a school that had thousands of extra students on campus, all admitted under different (not necessarily lower, but different) admissions standards, in an environment that is already going to be sorely taxed. </p>

<p>Do I think the 5 students are "gaming" the system? Well, yes, and no. Yes, in that had they had the original option to attend H. they might have chosen differently. No, in that they didn't arrange for the levees breaking. And certainly no, since AFTER they enrolled at H. under the terms of the agreement, T. radically altered the experience they were going to be offered upon their return. </p>

<p>I for one am hugely glad that T. is not "honoring" their agreement to offer what a Tulane education would otherwise have looked like prior to the levee break. And I'm also glad that there are lots of students who are choosing to return despite the radical and voluntary change in the offerings by the school. But I don't see the big deal in the fact that there are a few students who don't.</p>

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<p>I don't think that "because I like it here" flies as a reason to be considered for admittance to Harvard in front of other transfer applicants (who would also probably "like it there" and also probably "prove able to do the work" if given the opportunity to visit and take classes for a semester).</p>

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<p>The principle is that when you agree to a policy which benefits you (no-questions-asked-attendance-at-Visiting-School-tuition-free), you agree to all the other aspects of the policy which might not delight you so much. You honor your agreement, because that is the right thing to do.</p>

<p>If you didn't like the looks of the experience you were going to return to, you should have withdrawn. Tulane gave them that right well into the fall term.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Am I misunderstanding this, or does the original agreement between Tulane and the other schools say that the other colleges WILL NOT take these students as transfers?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Correct. The schools agreed not to poach the Tulane students by offering them the option of transferring. The problem for Tulane is that they cannot afford to lose the tuition revenue -- either from last semester or going forward.</p>

<p>This was all handled by "gentleman's agreement" among the schools in order to give Tulane, Xavier, and Dillard a fighting chance to survive.</p>

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<p>Epiphany-</p>

<p>If a "smugly superior attitude" (your words) is so rampant at Harvard, why are the Harvard students welcoming the Tulane students and overwhelmingly voting to keep them on? Shouldn't they be looking to get rid of them -- make them go back where they belong? That would be far more in keeping with a smugly superior attitude.</p>

<p>I'd say the prevailing attitude that Harvard students have shown here is one of welcoming support and friendship.</p>

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<p>"The principle is that when you agree to a policy which benefits you (no-questions-asked-attendance-at-Visiting-School-tuition-free), you agree to all the other aspects of the policy which might not delight you so much. You honor your agreement, because that is the right thing to do."</p>

<p>Does that mean that Tulane is bound by its agreement to offer the experience it would have offered otherwise, to the best of its ability? Where's the principle? Tulane benefitted by pocketing the tuition from the fall (I'm glad they did) just as the students benefitted from going elsewhere "tuition free" (which, of course, is not true - they paid for the privilege, but to Tulane.) So now circumstances have changed, and Tulane has decided voluntarily (and kudos to them) to overcrowd their campus, their facilities, their dormitories, their residential life systems, something that none of the students who paid their tuition to Tulane last term agreed to, and may not have, had they known.</p>

<p>H. "poaching" T students? That's silly. It would be "nice" if the H. students returned to T., even if T. is now offering a different product. It would be "nice" if H. (not to single them out) gave T. a couple of mil in the process as well. But it hardly rises to the level of "Honour".</p>

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<p>These are special circumstances. Why should a freshman have to spend one semester at Duke or Harvard, do well and then have to go back to Tulane for 1 semester before being allowed to apply. These are freshman and that does not make sense emotionally . The population at large has not gone through the trauma and uncertainty these students went through so I say get out of the box for an unusual situation and avoid more trauma in their young college career. I feel for these students. My D has had a lot of adjusting as a freshman at her college in San Diego. If it were her I know it would be a tough adjustment to get used to another college after 1 semester and another roomate, a new group of friends etc. Just my .02 though.</p>

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<p>I think that with the school in the OP being Harvard it makes the discussion take on a different route then if it was a less prestigious institution. Many students would love to attend Harvard. And debate aside whether your student likes Harvard or not most students who enrolled at Tulane were not admitted to Harvard. They in my opinion are taking advantage of the system. I also agree that if you went with the understanding that it was as a visiting student that should be honored. What is not so clear is many students and institutions made arrangements prior to the agreement of the umbrella organizations. These institutions stepped forward to benefit the students without any agreement with Tulane. They did it for the students because it was the right thing to do. Some of these instititutions had already told the students they could stay as long as they needed or indefinitely. I don't know how those institutions are handling things. U of Denver offerred those students the offer to stay before the agreement was made with Tulane. Should they honor that agreement or rescend that orginal offer. There offer went to any displaced student not just Tulane. I know there are Loyola and UNO students there.
They do not want our tuition at the host school. I will take the money saved and donate it to a relief agency.
I think the high rate of freshman registration is also a reflection of most freshman not really having a choice. The number who return the following year will be a more assessment.</p>

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<p>Tulane offered the students the chance to "withdraw" in the fall - that's a joke becasue they had nowhere else to go. We are talking about a very few students and everyone is getting all bent out of shape that they might get a special privilege that they have probably earned by now - I doubt Harvard would want them if they are C students.
At my DDs high school, 3 students have already learned they are accepted to HYP. They are ALL athletes, none of them are top students or even have SATs nearing 1400 (some in the 1200s) and they are being offered admission ahead of even the EA and ED kids, and if accepted, they are under no obligation to actually participate in their sport when they get to college! So it's not like every admit to HYP is some brilliant student, better than Tulane. There are all kinds of ways kids get into college. Life isn't fair. Get over it.</p>

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<p>"to overcrowd their campus, their facilities, their dormitories, their residential life systems"</p>

<p>???</p>

<p>mini, you might want to know a little more about these things before you make such statements.</p>

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<p>garland, for the record, my first post was more directed to the joev comment about living with Trump and having to return to a grubby apt. The idea that H is the end all and be all of the academic world, and that EVERYONE ascribes to that notion is, indeed, laughable.</p>

<p>And yes, there are some who take a very imperial view of H, especially their tour guides. For example, when one of my very serious-mined daughter's asked her guide why she chose H, the tour guide responded: "Because I got in." I do believe my daughter was looking for something along the lines of great dept in X,Y.Z, I always wanted to study under A, B and C, etc.</p>

<p>Also, when my other daughter asked about study abroad programs, and how widely they are taken advantage of at H, the tour guide said: "why would want to go anywhere else, you are Harvard."</p>

<p>So, sorry, I did not bash H, just pointed out a personality defect that SOME have and foist upon the rest of the world. My point was, and is, H is not for everyone, and does not need to be. Some student -- indeed the vast majority of them -- want to get back to NOLA and their schools. Many of them chose not to apply to H, Y & P., and many more did not need this interruption in their lives to "prove" to anyone that they could "run with the big dogs."</p>

<p>And anyone who thinks they needed to, is imperious indeed. So, no apologizes from me for speaking my mind.</p>