Diversity: Explicit Example

Student Lounge College Life
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<p>Hehe. I think he means to criticize me. I guess I'm disappointing him? </p>

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Quite frankly, I’m unconvinced that race has any relationship with academic performance.

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And how did you conclude that? Because I wrote “Quite frankly, I’m unconvinced that race has any relationship with academic performance”? Not only is that poor critical reading, unbefitting of a Stanford student, but it’s also plain bad faith. My statement clearly shows that I am skeptical that race plays any role in academic performance.

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<p>And here it comes.</p>

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I don’t deny that racism is one component, but I think it is incredibly na</p>

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<p>fabrizio:</p>

<p>It is you who is being naive. You said that "culture" is another component of the problem, but have you ever stopped to ask yourself what shaped African American culture? Hmmm... maybe racism?</p>

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<p>@ Bourne:</p>

<p>Here's a quote from you:</p>

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Race - Being Hispanic -- seeing few success stories, realizing the role many like you have played in society, Hard working day laborers, -- maybe encountering racism down the line.

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<p>So to sum it up, you believe it's acceptable that the admissions standards for URMs are lower than for whites/asians. You find this is acceptable because, even for wealthy URMs, they have overcome a lot due to their race. Thus, the admissions take this overcoming of hardships into account or they look at the "context." In your mind, this "context" is as follows (maybe i'll add a few that you didn't directly state but I'm sure you'll agree with):</p>

<p>1) URMs see few role models (or people that look like them) in academic/ white collar positions that are achieved through going to college and performing well in school.
2) URMs are not encouraged in same manner as whites from teachers and schools. They are not encouraged to pursue academia as a viable goal by these people.
3) URMs are privy to racist stereotypes and racially based discouragement from teachers, society, etc.
4) URMs are privy to internalizing these stereotypes and thus performing worse than they would if they were white.</p>

<p>Thus because of the above, we should lower the standard for admission at elite colleges. Well I actually agree!</p>

<p>I also believe that colleges should actively recruit mediocre WHITE basketball players and give them scholarships instead of talented black players. Also, the NBA should then draft these bad players over players like LeBron James because after all, he's had such a great athletic support system. Colleges and the NBA should understand that white players are susceptible to the 4 race biases listed above and start lowering the standard for white players. After all, young white basketball players don't grow up envisioning their success as professional or college players because of the racially biased basketball system we have in place in America.</p>

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<p>Hehe, if it was possible that those white guys with the proper preparation could succeed at the same level as the current NBA players, then fine. If there were factors that limited those "white" guys developing? Sure.</p>

<p>AA isn't supposed to be a crutch for life. I completely disagree with that. Just as I'd disagree with those white players getting a spot on the team, and never ever being able to compete with the current players. That's not what AA was meant for.</p>

<p>And btw, stop with these horrible horrible examples. They're HORRIBLE.</p>

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And btw, stop with these horrible horrible examples. They're HORRIBLE.

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<p>Of course they're ridocolous. That's the point: To put AA into an analogous situation as college but one that is explicitly based on merit.</p>

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Hehe, if it was possible that those white guys with the proper preparation could succeed at the same level as the current NBA players, then fine. If there were factors that limited those "white" guys developing? Sure.

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<p>That's a cop out. I'm talking about who to give scholarships to and who to draft in the NBA draft. The example is asking that college coaches specifically target mediocre white players and give them contracts over significantly more talented black players. It's asking general mangers of NBA teams to draft white players before black players. </p>

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Just as I'd disagree with those white players getting a spot on the team, and never ever being able to compete with the current players.

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<p>The problem with AA is that black students who would do well at a good state school (Michigan) are instead attending Princeton and doing horribly. Black students at elite college do significantly worse than their white/asian counterparts. Whether you want to contribute this to innate intelligence, upbringing, preparation, whatever, it doesn't matter. At ugrad, law and medical schools, they do worse because they're put into an environment in which they're not capable of fully succeeding (due to the lower admissions standards). [I don't feel like looking up sources, but I swear I've read numerous studies on it, especially for medical and law schools.]</p>

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<p>Stop concentrating on one minority group. </p>

<p>Stop generalizing.</p>

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<p>dontno:</p>

<p>You have no idea what you are talking about. The graduation rates for whites, Asians, African Americans, Hispanics, Native Americans, etc. are essentially the same at schools like Harvard, Princeton, etc. Where are you statistics to prove that, "Black students at elite college do significantly worse than their white/asian counterparts?" Studies show the exact opposite of that: studies show that the performance is essentially the same at elite schools. For example, at Harvard 95% of African Americans graduate while 97% whites graduate.</p>

<p>Also, you sound like an idiot for saying, "The problem with AA is that black students who would do well at a good state school (Michigan) are instead attending Princeton and doing horribly." The difficulty of graduating from a school like UMich is very similar to the difficulty of graduating from a school like Harvard, Princeton, etc. To suggest that UMich is somehow "easier" than Harvard simply because it is not an Ivy League/Elite school is naive of you and just further illustrates that you have no idea what you are talking about.</p>

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At ugrad, law and medical schools, they do worse because they're put into an environment in which they're not capable of fully succeeding (due to the lower admissions standards). [I don't feel like looking up sources, but I swear I've read numerous studies on it, especially for medical and law schools.

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<p>Okay, so you don't feel liking looking up the numerous "studies" you've read on this subject? I bet you could find all the information you are looking for on Storm Front.org.</p>

<p>Anyway, your NBA analogy does not work because you are ignoring the fact that few whites are qualified to play in the NBA.</p>

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<p>Also, I am just curious, will people who are vehemently opposed to affirmative action please post a brief summary of their college resume/stats from their high school days?</p>

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<p>Bourne,</p>

<p>It’s disappointing for sure, but I guess my expectations are unrealistic. Stanford is a great university, but it is foolish of me to generalize that to all of its students. My sincere apologies. </p>

<p>Do you even have the source for your assertion that there’s a negative relationship between race and academic performance? Or did you just make that up to further your argument?</p>

<p>I don’t believe that race exists biologically. Consistent with that belief, I wrote “Quite frankly, I’m unconvinced that race has any relationship with academic performance.” Why would something that doesn’t really exist have anything to do with academic performance?</p>

<p>You might think that since I don’t believe in race, I also don’t believe that racism exists. Actually, there is no contradiction here. Racism still exists even though race doesn’t. Calling blacks inferior is racism, and it can certainly impact academic performance. However, being black itself is not racism, and consistent with what I wrote earlier, I don’t believe that being black on its own has any connection with academic performance. There’s no flip-flopping here, just sloppy reading.</p>

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So what you're trying to prove is that the parents of white children are more involved and more active than the parents of black children. But race plays no part, right? Or excuse me, culture. Which coincidentally happens to be a "racial" culture as it appears in your argument.

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<p>Again, sloppy reading. I did not take part in Dr. Ogbu’s research, and I’m not trying to prove anything. Those were simply Dr. Ogbu’s findings. Since I don’t believe there is a biological basis for race, I certainly don’t believe that being black automatically means less involvement in education. That’s bad faith discussion on your part.</p>

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My argument all along was to use race only in the instances that it can be seen to have been a negative.

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<p>Then you’ve contradicted yourself. Was it not you who wrote, “You can't say that subjectivity is valid in some cases, but wrong in others. You can't take into account different factors for one applicant -- and refuse to do the same for another”?</p>

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Anyway, your NBA analogy does not work because you are ignoring the fact that few whites are qualified to play in the NBA.

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<p>The "qualification" level for the NBA could be extremely low, like high school varsity level, and selectivity is simply driven up by competition from applicants. If some mutated strand of staph infection killed every current NBA player, do you think the NBA would cease to exist because there's no more qualified players around? No, they'd take the next best XYZ players to fill out rosters.</p>

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It is you who is being naive. You said that "culture" is another component of the problem, but have you ever stopped to ask yourself what shaped African American culture? Hmmm... maybe racism?

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<p>I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. Are you suggesting that we cannot fault those parents in Shaker Heights for having a suboptimal educational philosophy?</p>

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AA isn't supposed to be a crutch for life. I completely disagree with that. Just as I'd disagree with those white players getting a spot on the team, and never ever being able to compete with the current players. That's not what AA was meant for.

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<p>What something is supposedly meant for and what something accomplishes are two different things except by virtue of concurrence.</p>

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<p>Newjack88,</p>

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The difficulty of graduating from a school like UMich is very similar to the difficulty of graduating from a school like Harvard, Princeton, etc.

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<p>Let’s take a look at a public university – UC Berkeley. According to Dr. Richard Sander, “…for African-Americans, the 1995 class had a four-year graduation rate of 26%, while the 2001 class had a 52% graduation rate [Hispanics numbers are comparable]. For whites and Asians, it barely changes…The five and six-year grad rates for minorities get pretty close to the white rates [within five points]…”</p>

<p>52% versus 95%...is that the same?</p>

<p>I don’t know if Proposition 209 caused the increase in graduation rates. All I know is that after it passed, the rates went up. By comparison, before Michigan passed Proposal 2, black graduation rates at the University of Michigan were seventeen percentage points behind whites. [url=<a href="http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=YjcyYTc3YWQwMWM1YzBiNjI3OWZmZDA3OGQyYjliODU=%5DSource%5B/url"&gt;http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=YjcyYTc3YWQwMWM1YzBiNjI3OWZmZDA3OGQyYjliODU=]Source[/url&lt;/a&gt;]. 17 versus 2…is that the same?</p>

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<p>Easy:</p>

<p>Yea, I am pretty sure you're done. "If some mutated strand of staph infection killed every current NBA player..." What is the point of even taking the discussion there?</p>

<p>fabrizio:</p>

<p>I was pointing out that you pretty much failed at life in that post.</p>

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<p>Newjack88,</p>

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At ugrad, law and medical schools, they do worse because they're put into an environment in which they're not capable of fully succeeding (due to the lower admissions standards). [I don't feel like looking up sources, but I swear I've read numerous studies on it, especially for medical and law schools.

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Okay, so you don't feel liking looking up the numerous "studies" you've read on this subject? I bet you could find all the information you are looking for on Storm Front.org.

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<p>StormFront? Again, bad faith discussion.</p>

<p>Nationally, blacks fail the bar exam at four times the rate of whites. According to Dr. Sander, “Black students admitted through preferences generally have quite low grades — not because of any racial characteristic, but because the preferences themselves put them at an enormous academic disadvantage.” [url= <a href="http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=YjcyYTc3YWQwMWM1YzBiNjI3OWZmZDA3OGQyYjliODU=%5DSource%5B/url"&gt;http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=YjcyYTc3YWQwMWM1YzBiNjI3OWZmZDA3OGQyYjliODU=]Source[/url&lt;/a&gt;].&lt;/p>

<p>Wasn’t it you who said that GPA was the best indicator of future performance?</p>

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<p>Newjack88,</p>

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I was pointing out that you pretty much failed at life in that post.

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<p>So you’re admitting that you have no substance in your arguments. Thanks.</p>

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Yea, I am pretty sure you're done. "If some mutated strand of staph infection killed every current NBA player..." What is the point of even taking the discussion there?

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<p>Hmm I don't know, bringing imagery and liveliness to my post in explaining that NBA qualification could be quite low? I'm obviously so done. </p>

<p>Go sit on the sidelines newjack. Let the real ballas play amongst themselves; you have nothing to contribute in making posts like that.</p>

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<p>fabrizio:</p>

<p>You failed again. How is the graduation rate representative of the difficulty of graduating from the school? Go back and and try to comprehend what I was talking about in that sentence.</p>

<p>Also, UMich is not an elite/Ivy League school.</p>

<p>Lastly, Berkeley and UMich are outliers in this.</p>

<p>Anyway, check out Black</a> Student College Graduation Rates Inch Higher But the Large Racial Gap Persists. </p>

<p>Basically, it is people like you who go on and on about how affirmative action is "immoral" that cause African Americans and other minorities to do poorly. I bet Asians would do poorly if they were discriminated against/viewed in the same ways African Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans are/were. Ever since whites considered Asians to be the "model minority" Asians have continued to succeed. It is people like you who encourage minorities to self segregate and to question whether or not they are capable/deserving of attending a good school. People like you just seem reluctant to be welcoming of minorities. Why does it surprise you that at schools where there are a bunch of fabrizio's, Easy's, and dontno's prancing around and making racist/sexist comments who seem to think that they have a right to supersede the admissions officers' decisions and decide who is truly worthy/entitled to being admitted that African Americans and other minorities do poorly?</p>

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<p>fabrizio:</p>

<p>Haha. You need everything spelled out for you don't you? I wouldn't expect that from a UGA student... actually yes I would. (Just for your criticizing that Stanford student.)</p>

<p>Anyway, you said, "I don’t deny that racism is one component, but I think it is incredibly na</p>

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Hmm I don't know, bringing imagery and liveliness to my post in explaining that NBA qualification could be quite low? I'm obviously so done.

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<p>Yea, you are done. And by the way that was a great hypothetical example that everyone ought to seriously consider.</p>