<p>i was just browsing around and i came across this forum. i actually just got back from divoh this past weekend and it was pretty amazing! im not a huge amherst lover so when i was invited and accepted i didnt realize how great of an opportunity i had. i anticipated a great student body but was quite disappointed at the lack of intellectual curiosity among the students. however i still had a great experience and met a lot of nice people.</p>
<p>supportivemom1 im also from san diego!</p>
<p>huliaj, I have some questions for you. What other colleges were you comparing amherst to? What colleges ARE you a fan of? (Sorry for all the dangling participles!) As a Californian, did you feel you would have trouble fitting into the "East Coast culture" at Amherst? Thanks for the input...</p>
<p>"i anticipated a great student body but was quite disappointed at the lack of intellectual curiosity among the students."</p>
<p>huliaj, I'd be interested to hear you talk a bit more about this, if you're so inclined. I have a son there, and I have been very impressed by certain aspects of the school, but also have heard some disappointing things about the attitude of the students.</p>
<p>How did your experience with the students there compare with other colleges?</p>
<p>well i obviously compared amherst to williams (although i am not a fan of williams). but i did feel that williams was more intellectual than amherst. some other divoh kids i met did the overnight program at williams and they confirmed this belief. one concern i have regarding all of the new england liberal arts colleges is that they are comprised of many new england prep school kids. i guess as a californian, i dont enjoy the attitudes and personalities of those types of students. i also prefer very diverse student bodies because i love hearing different perspectives on issues and learning about different cultures. i feel like amherst does a better job than, for instance middlebury, and most of the liberal arts colleges in bringing in a diverse student body. however i still got that pretentious vibe. after sitting in on three classes (neurobiology, a LJST class, and a freshmen seminar), the only class in which students were intrigued and actually participatory was in the seminar class. the professors tried to incite discussion in the neurobio and LJST class, but most students had nothing to say and only asked questions for clarification. i get the vibe that at amherst many students are very book smart in the sense that they are good test takers and do as they are told in the classroom. they are not excited about many concepts and do not further speculate on issues. now i just made a huge generalization. i did meet a lot of bright and stimulating people, but it wasnt the majority. i thought i would have encountered more of this style of intellectual vitality. the students seemed to be more interested in their social lives, as thats all i heard them talk about.</p>
<p>i am also very impressed with the school, especially the professors and their teaching. i think my expectations of the student body were too high going into divoh, so i was a little disappointed.</p>
<p>i had no trouble fitting in with the east coast culture but i still felt a little out of place. the students were nice, but my friends and i did a few judgemental stares when walking around campus. i also subconsciouslly chose to hang out with californians. luckily i didnt get the very snobbish vibe that i felt at princeton</p>
<p>also in terms of comparisons, i compared amherst to the claremont colleges as well (im a big fan of claremont mckenna because of its very practical approach). pomona and cmc rank higher on my college list now than amherst because i prefer the laid back california atmosphere. i think most californians like the more lax attitude on the west coast. this was the first overnight that i did so i cannot really compare students. however i did get a chance to have in depth conversations with students at stanford, and they seemed a lot less shallow than the ones i met at amherst.</p>
<p>amherst is just not the perfect school for me. but i do, of course, respect amherst as a great institution</p>
<p>huliaj, thanks for explaining more about your experience. My son also deliberated a bit between Amherst, Williams, and Pomona before settling on Amherst as a first choice. He does <em>really</em> like his professors. (This is his first semester there.) He seems very impressed with their teaching, but a little bowled over from time to time with the amount of work he's expected to get done in very short periods of time... but that's fine. He's doing well just the same.</p>
<p>He has been a bit put off by the amount of student drinking. He's in the substance free dorm though, and he is very, very happy to be there. It's a refuge.</p>
<p>He was a bit taken aback during freshman orientation week because a book was chosen as the summer reading for the entire freshman class. The idea is there would be a lecture relating to the book and then smaller breakout groups to discuss it. My son read it and thought it was really terrific, interesting, provocative. He went eager to discuss it and found that it was w-i-d-e-l-y just blown off and not read by a really big percentage of students. In his breakout group only he and one other student had even bothered to read it. So, I think that was the beginning of the adjustment in his expectations of the student body. It was disappointing and not what he anticipated.</p>
<p>I think there is a culture of great emphasis on the social aspects of the college experience there. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's a bit different thing than a very focused, intellectually curious student body. But of course, these are all generalizations and no doubt it's a matter of finding a community for oneself, and that will be the case wherever a student chooses to enroll. The students do seem, in my son's experience, to work very hard there because the academic demands are pretty high. Perhaps the social outlets are a way to discharge some of that pressure, and so there is less desire to keep that level of inquiry going in what can be precious down-time... if you know what I mean.</p>
<p>Still, it's been an interesting process of adapting to what the reality is rather than The Image.</p>
<p>We are west coasters (California and Oregon) of modest means and I know what you mean about the laid-back manner, however one thing my son has not experienced is snootiness or pretention at Amherst. And the engagement with students of different backgrounds and from all over the world has been really fabulous. His dorm has many international students and he just loves that. (And not surprisingly, I guess, those are often the students that are more earnest about, and committed to, the educational opportunities they have there.)</p>
<p>All-in-all, it is still clear that it's a fabulous place to be with amazing opportunities. He'd choose it all over again if he was doing it over, but it's not Utopia. But then, what college is?</p>
<p>I should add, that I'm not sure it's all that different at other schools. My daughter is at a regional state univ. that isn't even on the College Confidential radar. She has a class where the discussions are pretty lame most of the time, and another that is just hopping with energy and insight. Both are honors classes. So, you know, there are better and worse classes wherever you go. There are engaged students and less-engaged students. I think part of the issue with "elite" colleges and universities is there is so much hype and mystique built up around them.</p>
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one concern i have regarding all of the new england liberal arts colleges is that they are comprised of many new england prep school kids
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<p>Very true, but you've also acknowledged:</p>
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i feel like amherst does a better job than...most of the liberal arts colleges in bringing in a diverse student body.
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<p>Which is certainly true. The Class of 2012 is remarkably diverse--socioeconomically and racially--and I've observed this from first hand and everyday experience.</p>
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at amherst many students are very book smart in the sense that they are good test takers and do as they are told in the classroom.
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<p>All well-performing students are book-smart and follow directions well...</p>
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i thought i would have encountered more ... intellectual vitality.
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<p>A genuine concern. It bothers me too. But, this goes hand-in-hand with 'rentof2's observation that there is far too much mystique that surrounds the ivy-clad, gated walls of our nation's best colleges (Amherst is not enclosed, fun fact!). This problem, a lack of intellectual curiosity and passion, is widespread and pervasive, but I would actually argue much less so at Amherst than at places like Harvard and Columbia. Seriously.</p>
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i did a few judgemental stares when walking around campus.
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<p>Lots of Jeffs are rather awkward and weird: don't take it personally.</p>
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luckily i didnt get the very snobbish vibe that i felt at princeton
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<p>All the students I've met there were friendly and charismatic. There is a subconscious intimidation that a middle class person feels in the presence of absurdly wealthy WASPs, believe me...</p>
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however i did get a chance to have in depth conversations with students at stanford, and they seemed a lot less shallow than the ones i met at amherst.
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<p>You really have to keep an open mind, and get rid of your West Coast bias. It's a form of cliquish snobbery, the very kind you yourself disdain. I see groups of people from the Midwest, the South, the Northeast, and even the West chatting it up comfortably and amiable every day, everywhere. Amherst really is diverse, and this still surprises me. Jeffs are not shallow. You have to remember that we are still young, and we have the right to talk about BS, popular culture and media, and other meaningless banter. We can't be discussing politics and current events all the time.</p>
<p>I just came back from lunch today, after having had a conversation where I had been defending my nuanced pro-life stance against two friends who were adamantly pro-choice, though their views were nuanced as well. We had spent two hours today discussing abortion, the definition of human life, and euthanasia--even though, holy crap, we all have midterms and papers due today and by the end of this week. If every conversation between students were an impassioned debate, we would be utterly exhausted, on top of the tons of work we have.</p>
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He seems very impressed with their teaching, but a little bowled over from time to time with the amount of work he's expected to get done in very short periods of time...
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<p>I have many friends who are Crimsons, Tigers, and Lions, and I know now for sure that we have a lot, lot more work than they do. It's ridiculous.</p>
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He has been a bit put off by the amount of student drinking. He's in the substance free dorm though
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<p>Yeah, the athletes do party hard here, and then they get wild. I've found this happening at places like Middlebury and Haverford, though, when I stayed weekends there. The solution? Purge the sports-oriented culture. Also, I heard North is kind of boring. =)</p>
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a book was chosen as the summer reading... that... was w-i-d-e-l-y just blown off and not read by a really big percentage of students.
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<p>A 400 page book about FDR and Churchill--mostly historical reiteration, a few fun facts and interesting insights interspersed here or there. It was a bad book, and I can understand why most people didn't bother: I didn't. Also, only two people in my discussion group read the book, but we were still able to have a very active and meaningful discussion dealing with the greater themes at hand, notably the concept of an "inclusive democracy." We further had rigorous, active discussions about race-class and sexual interaction over the following days. I might have had a great group of people, though, because I've heard about groups that just sat there in silence and chilled.</p>
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one thing my son has not experienced is snootiness or pretention at Amherst.
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<p>Honestly, this is true. People claim they experience a snobby vibe when they visit the best colleges--Harvard, Princeton, Amherst--but this is simply not true. It is a psychological predisposition to prejudge an environment in a biased way without first having thoroughly made the effort to be a part of it. Amherst is remarkably diverse in all senses of the word, and our Jeffs are down-to-earth and cool, if only a little awkward.</p>
<p>Kwu, I used to teach literature classes, and Rule #1 was students who did not read the book did not get to issue forth blithe reviews on whether or not it was interesting enough for them. But we'll let that go... it sort of reinforces Huliaj's point about intellectual curiousity. When 18 year olds start spouting about how a book about a particularly compelling period of history, that is a NYT bestseller (can you imagine a history book being good enough to compete with all the pap on the bookstore shelves?), and commended by erudite authors and historians, that the student didn't actually even read, is a "bad book" ... well, you can understand that the weight of credibility is not really on your side, right? ;)</p>
<p>But I agree with everything else you said. Well, not that North is boring. It's a tight knit community, and like others it's not going to necessarily have broad appeal. Some students there really love it. There are others who are looking forward to moving on to other dorms next year. The important thing is for students who prefer different types of living communities to have options, is all.</p>
<p>i agree with everything everyone has just said. it is very very VERY difficult to visit those prestigious east coast schools when i have all of these misleading preconceptions in my head! but i was impressed with the school's student body when comparing it with the other liberal arts colleges ive been to on the east. almost all of the students i met were more welcoming than i expected.</p>
<p>i should also clarify what i meant to say in terms of the type of "smart" i meant. the impression i got was that many students are book smart and just limited to the book. they didnt further inquire or question the concepts and ideas they learned. it seemed like these students were not very stimulated. but then again, i sat in on monday classes in which everyone seemed too tired to care anyway haha. it was funny that in the seminar class i sat in on, more of the divoh students participated than the actual students.</p>
<p>when i was at amherst i also noticed the large amounts of drinking. i might add that since i visited on a weekend the students must have been more lax academically than on the weekdays, which could contribute to the impression i got.</p>
<p>i actually did experience that snobby vibe at princeton! i didnt feel it at harvard or any of the other ivy leagues, just princeton. some of my friends feel that stanford is a bit stuffy as well, but i dont feel that way at all. im pretty sure its just all in our heads :)</p>
<p>overall i did love amherst, but i cannot picture myself there.</p>
<p>i find it funny that many people have never even heard of williams or amherst here in san diego because in my mind it is on par with schools like harvard and yale</p>
<p>"i find it funny that many people have never even heard of williams or amherst here in san diego because in my mind it is on par with schools like harvard and yale"</p>
<p>Yeah, I know what you mean. When people here ask me where my son is going to college I just say " in Massachusetts." ;) It's just way easier to leave it at that.</p>
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When 18 year olds start spouting ... you can understand that the weight of credibility is not really on your side, right?
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<p>You condescend to me because I am eighteen? Am I somehow less qualified to comment on the readability of a book because I lack a B.A. from Amherst and a J.D. from Yale?</p>
<p>Elie Wiesel's Night was a great read. After Oprah showered praise on it, it dominated the NYT bestseller list for 80 weeks. It had been widely praised by historians even before it became sensationalized by Oprah and the Times. Now, I could care less about what Oprah or the general public reads, nor can published scholars with degrees sway my opinion: I am no tool. Night is a "good" book because Wiesel offered a fascinating, personal, and original presentation of a "particularly compelling period of history," as you suggest.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I read did not read Franklin and Winston in its entirety, but I read enough of it to be able to judge that the author did -not- make a consistently original and interesting presentation of material that is supposed to be interesting: therefore, I deem it "bad." Semantics, semantics. =)</p>
<p>Not semantics. Humility, and the willingness to learn from people far more informed, skillful, and experienced than we are. Also the sure knowledge that you get out of something in direct proportion to what you put in.</p>
<p>When engaged in a strictly analytical argument with another person, it is important for one to remain impersonal and refrain from attacks on character. I'm under the impression that whatever arguments or observations I set forth about F&W, you will dismiss them without consideration (since you yourself have not read any of the book), and instead draw attention to what you imply to be my lack of intellectual curiosity and humility--which you have done. So, I will withdraw and surrender, since my arguments are regarded as worthless/worth less in this particular debate.</p>
<p>End of discussion.</p>
<p>A few talking points relevant to this topic:
-Amherst is diverse community with students from many usually underrepresented states. Students of color make up more than a third of the student body, and it is split evenly among men and women. There is a great deal of socioeconomic diversity: more than half of students receive some form of financial aid, and Amherst makes an active effort to create a class that favors students from more modest backgrounds/means.</p>
<p>-I am not the archetypical Amherst student. Most students are very friendly and sociable; they have "intellectually curiosity" and "humility" in abundance.</p>
<p>kwu, I understand you are through with this, and I respect that of course. Just by way of clarification though, I never considered that we were "engaged in a strictly analytical argument" about a book neither one of us has read properly. That was the point, really. But perhaps this thread should return to the topic of DIVOH now. :)</p>
<p>Me and a couple of friends just got accepted to the Open House for October we go to North Miami and are very friendly people, just wanted to know if anyone else did as well.</p>
<p>=]]</p>
<p>August 3rd
Latest August 14</p>