<p>@PurpleTitan @TopTier I agree. I think in certain circumstances and in certain places a top MBA or Law Degree can still open doors later in life in certain niches more than geography. </p>
<p>Say the Arkansas Lawyer decides one day he is going to pack up and move to Iowa, I don’t think the fact he doesn’t have an Ivy Degree would hurt him much in that situation. He has experience and in a place like Iowa they would care more for the experience.</p>
<p>However, it might be a different story, if the same said Lawyer decides he wants to one day pack up and head to DC and practice Constitutional Law. Where, let’s assume, most of the Constitutional Law Firms are stocked with people who have Ivy League law degrees.</p>
<p>Not to beat a dead horse, I was just agreeing and offering my own insight.</p>
<p>The topic question could be rephrased, in social science language, like this:
do colleges produce measurable treatment effects that can be separated cleanly from selection effects associated with the admission process?</p>
<p>I think the answer is “no” … not because those effects don’t exist, but because we don’t know how to measure them very well. If we did know how, then the measurements probably would have shown up by now in a widely-accepted college ranking.</p>
<p>All the available outcome measurements have “issues”. </p>
<p>We might get closer to an answer if we first could agree on what we mean by “successful people”.</p>
<p>What counts as “success”? The core mission of colleges and universities is to produce and share knowledge. Virtually every college and university (elite or not) produces at least a few graduates who are more knowledgeable and thoughtful when they graduate than they were when they matriculated. So to that degree, they all produce successful people. </p>
<p>“However, what happens if, at age 35, 45, or 55, one want to move (or has to move) due to serious personal or professional issues. To continue an now-overused illustration, the Yale lawyer will unquestionably have significant advantages that his University of Arkansas colleague does not enjoy (all other circumstances being equal). I believe this sort of long-range contingency planning”</p>
<p>Right, but you can’t spend your entire life contingency-planning what-if for remote scenarios.</p>
<p>Maybe I should have turned down my husbsnd’s marriage proposal because up until recently, there was still a door open to becoming George Clooney’s wife, and I shut that down by taking myself off the market 25 years ago. What if!! </p>
<p>The overwhelming majority of law grads from ANY law school are not federal judges. Most of them are working in places other than DC. So along the way, even WITH a so-called “elite degree,” people are making other choices about their lives.</p>
<p>The other thing about looking at mid-career hiring is that by then people have a much better credential than a piece of paper–they have a resume that attests to their success in the real world. By that point almost no one cares where you went to college or grad school (even if they might have for more junior hires). It’s what you have done with it that matters.</p>
<p>“But, there’s also evidence showing that IF they can get admitted to these elite schools, students from low-income, low-performing public schools graduate at the same rates and do just as well as their wealthy peers.” - @julliet </p>
<p>Would you share these findings? I am curious because I have seen evidence to the contrary that mismatching can lead to frustration for students that have not been exposure to the rigor and pace of their new learning environment which often leads them to find less rigorous majors. </p>
<p>The answer to the OP’s question is Yes to both. More able people will do better regardless of where they go to school. And, especially for certain career paths, elite schools provide benefit above and beyond the individual students’ capability/effort while for others they don’t and may encourage/enable students to pick different career paths than they might have chosen at a school lower down on the elite list.</p>
<p>I haven’t read the whole thread but I see that people have mentioned i-banking and consulting. The same was true in the hedge fund industry (and probably private equity, as they source in part from i-banks). When I had an affiliation in the hedge fund industry (I helped start a couple but didn’t run anything), it was clear that at a number of firms, Ivy degrees were, if not a minimum requirement, a highly desired characteristic. If you didn’t get into that game early, you would be a lot less likely to get in the game later. Similarly, your opportunity to be part of startups while at school and to get funding is substantially higher at Stanford than at many other schools. And, again, once you are in that flow and are on your second or fourth startup, you will have lots more opportunities coming your way. </p>
<p>In contrast, I don’t know if an Ivy nursing degree ( undergrad nursing degree at Penn and maybe others) provides any benefit over other good schools in terms of career prospects or income. Do Ivy psych or English majors who go into teaching after an obligatory stint in TFA do better career-wise than teachers with lesser academic backgrounds? I don’t know. I’d guess instead that the Ivy pedigree means Ivy-educated are more likely to seek out other options and leave teaching (no data on this).</p>
<p>My experience at elite schools (I attended three of HYPMS and taught at one before going into business) is that they offer three things that many others do not. They provide (or can provide):</p>
<ol>
<li> Bigger Horizons (You leave thinking you want to be the best in the world at what you do and realize that’s feasible);</li>
<li> Contacts (the alumni networks are very impressive as are your classmates), and </li>
<li> A National and International Reputation – they provide a great stamp on the forehead (the international recognition of Harvard is extraordinary) that arises in part because of their selectivity. </li>
</ol>
<p>There are probably a few other specialized schools (e.g., RISD for Art, Waterloo or CMU for computer science, etc.) that function the same way in their fields as I see in roughtly the top 15. In their own areas, these specialized elite school probably function the same way (horizons, contacts and reputation). Note that that elite schools or specialized elites may or may not provide a better education than other schools. </p>
<p>Incidentally, in my own case, I didn’t have a trust fund or a well-connected family so I didn’t bring any assets to the table except for my brain and drive to be successful. Given the drive, I probably would have done reasonably well wherever I went to college. But, I’m pretty sure that both my career prospects and my income were/are aided by having a set of elite schools on my resume. I made lateral career switches into other fields that enabled me to gain lots of experience that I use now. I’m sure that looking at my educational credentials made people more comfortable hiring me for a job for which I had no direct qualification. I now work in an area that did not exist when I was in college but that I stumbled into while in grad school and that has its epicenter at an elite school. I’m in an area where it is a little hard to demonstrate differences in quality in the simple ways and thus people have to use proxy variables to make assessments of quality. Prospective clients still read my resume and are impressed by the collection of high-end schools (“No question he’s an incredibly smart guy”) as well what I’ve accomplished since then.</p>
<p>I think some kids benefit more than others but that the relationship is a symbiotic one.</p>
<p>For example, Donald Trump’s daughter, Ivanka, is a Wharton graduate. It’s probably pretty safe to say that she would’ve been successful no matter what school she attended but the degree shows that she has more going for her than her last name.</p>
<p>A smart and talented kid with no connections and no family name with a business degree from Wharton gets the prestige of a degree that opens doors at the highest levels and offers access to an amazing network at the elite level. </p>
<p>I think that the elite schools open doors that others would take years, although equally talented and gifted, to open. </p>
<p>Talent and intelligence is no guarantee if success either. I’ve seen some idiotic politicians, dumb actors and actresses and stupid athletes that are highly successful if you measure it monetarily but lacking intellectually. College professors are smart but most aren’t raking in the dough. </p>
<p>I have a friend in the Mensa Society that is a postal worker! Not even in management. Sometimes high intelligence is not the blessing you think it is. Some people think too much and too long while others are taking action.</p>
<p>There was a study a few years ago on this topic that showed that among students who applied to Ivy league schools but we’re rejected compared to those that got in that their success rates were about equal some years after graduation (I forget the exact parameters of the study). The conclusion was that students who feel qualified enough to apply to Ivy League schools were about equally successful as grads of Ivy league schools. So there may be an attitudinal component to future success.</p>
<p>The same study showed that among African-Americans, attendance at an Ivy League school was significantly beneficial over attending schools of lesser stature. The conclusion was that the least connected and least resourced gained the most from access to an Ivy league network and opportunities.</p>
<p>“For example, Donald Trump’s daughter, Ivanka, is a Wharton graduate. It’s probably pretty safe to say that she would’ve been successful no matter what school she attended but the degree shows that she has more going for her than her last name.”</p>
<p>It probably still wouldn’t matter when you have connections like that. I’ll see you Ivanka Trump and raise you Stella McCartney, who is taken very seriously as a talented fashion designer and someone considered not just to be riding on famous coattails but to have real talent (as Ms. Trump is). She didn’t need a fancy degree, and I submit Ivanka Trump really doesn’t “need” a Penn degree except for whatever personal pleasure or satisfaction it may bring to her.</p>
<p>I think part of this discussion is circular precisely because people only know what they know.</p>
<p>The people on CC who worked in hedge funds, i-banking, mgt consulting, etc. – well, they are IN fields where the degree carries a lot of weight. So they look around their office and they see mostly Ivy and elite schools, and very few people from “average” schools, so they conclude - wow, having an elite degree really does make a difference, I don’t see too many UMass diplomas in the corner office.</p>
<p>And those of us who are in fields where we see a mix of elite degrees and non-elite degrees and past a certain point it doesn’t matter – we say - what are you talking about? Because we see the elite grads and the non-elite grads doing the same thing after a while.</p>
<p>The difference is, those who work in hedge funds, i-banking, etc. tend to be stunningly unaware of the many good career opportunities outside those fields, and so they have a hard time comprehending a workplace in wihch where you went to school just doesn’t matter as much after a while. They really have no idea what the world is like in industry, advertising agencies, media companies, all other kinds of worlds in which the luster just isn’t as big of a deal as they think it is. </p>
<p>Well, you must work in an industry in which your customers know and care about “high-end schools.” In the average business situation, people don’t know OR care, unless they have a personal connection to the institutions on someone’s resume.</p>
I think you’ll find that more posters than not would agree with you. What differs is how much people care about those things. As @Pizzagirl noted, this is where our personal biases come into play. Since I can directly attribute much of my academic and fellowship success to the training and support I received at my undergrad alma mater, I value the perks of an elite school. Other posters in fields where it doesn’t matter – medicine or engineering, for instance – are more likely to downplay any benefits or consider them useful but unnecessary luxuries. It’s all relative. </li>
</ol>
<p>Most would agree that where you attend college matters to at least SOME degree. If not, why even bother applying to elite colleges or places like the Colleges That Change Lives? If it truly doesn’t matter, you could just apply to the local state university and call it a day. It’d be a lot easier and for many a lot cheaper. </p>
<p>Despite this general agreement, CCers always struggle with evaluating the relative value of colleges. I don’t think it will ever be resolved, nor does it need to be except within one’s own home. (You see this reflected in other things as well – how many threads have there been about private nursery schools in NYC?)</p>
<p>
The obvious problem is the difficulty of quantifying success. Usually it’s simply a comparison of self-reported salary data, most often only of students who didn’t pursue graduate degrees – a rather distinct minority of the student body at many colleges. The much cited Dale & Krueger study (an analysis of college students from 1976 and 1989) is a good example of a salary-based study. YMMV on the appropriateness of salary as a measure of success. </p>
<p>Like the equally cited Revealed Preferences study, I think many have never read the D&K study in its entirety. The list of colleges in the study is particularly interesting.
They’re almost all highly reputable colleges. Should it be a surprise all of the students do well?</p>
<p>Eh?? One thing I don’t get is why there’s so much black and white thinking on CC. Certainly, where you go to undergrad could matter, so if you have a choice and cost isn’t a consideration, might as well go to the better school.</p>
<p>However, in many environments, it pales next to the qualities that you have an an individual (and well as where you get your advanced degree).</p>
<p>I don’t have a problem at all with what @shawbridge said and I don’t see many people who do.</p>
<p>“Prospective clients still read my resume and are impressed by the collection of high-end schools (“No question he’s an incredibly smart guy”) as well what I’ve accomplished since then.”</p>
<p>Well, then, everyone’s industry must be like that. @@ This is exactly what I mean by the extrapolation-from-self and the blindness of what-do-you-mean-there-are-other-types-of-industries?</p>
<p>I have clients with MBAs from Harvard, and clients with bachelor’s from “average” schools, and none of them care one bit about where I went to school (other than personal curiosity) - they care what my firm’s, and my, track record is. (Kind of a duh, really.) My clients aren’t renting my elite-school degree; they’re renting ME. And if they don’t like dealing with me, or if I can’t solve their business issues or what they hired me for, what, they’re going care I went to an elite school? Please.</p>
<p>In an Internet forum, there are people that come from all over the world. People are speaking from perspective. I am a software engineer who was born and raised in Louisville, KY. My dad is an engineer that graduated from UKY. My perspective might be different if I was raised in Boston with a family of Lawyers or in San Francisco in a family of venture capitalists.</p>
<p>When I was in high school, I wanted to go Duke or Penn. However, most of the people around me, even very successful friends and family that were at or around the 1%'s, could not wrap their heads around going to an elite school–since they went to places like UL and UKY. They were very successful without going to an elite school. Our valedictorian went to UKY and went through their Honors College, which is what top students in my region did.</p>
<p>In software engineering, after you have some experience, your Github account matters more than your school name. If I was a Lawyer, then I might point to my Alma Mater for making or breaking my success.</p>
<p>With that being said, I am looking at MBA programs and will probably go out of state (hopefully Ross School of Business), because I want to expand my perspective outside of my region.</p>
<p>Just out curiosity, what would people consider elite? Would a school have to be at the HYPSM level to be considered elite? Outside of the top 10 Universities and top 10 LAC’s, do you feel the benefits of having an UG from that institution diminish? Say somewhere like Vanderbilt vs a State U.</p>
<p>The challenge of trying to place a value on where one goes to college is that it’s difficult to place a value on college, period. The cost is disproportionately too high but so are the benefits except in the many non-technical choices available for students to choose.</p>
<p>College grads working retail and high school grads working in Shale oil and gas fields making $80K in North Dakota and parts of rural PA. It’s very hard to quantify and you can’t take the individual fully out of the equation. Plus, there are too many jobs that require degrees that didn’t require degrees ten and twenty years ago.</p>
<p>I know engineers that have done some jobs for 10 and 20 years that got laid off because they didn’t have this or that certification but some young guys fresh out of school did, not to mention that these guys were actually doing the work successfully.</p>
<p>A degree from an elite school is undoubtedly advantageous in many fields. I see them start higher up the corporate ladder at a younger age and usually move up the ladder faster but there is only so high one can go in many fields and anyone with the experience, connections, work ethic, smarts and good timing can get there. I think the elite degree just starts the grooming process sooner than for most other people.</p>
<p>Attending college or grad school among super-competitive peers can indeed “groom” certain types of people for the competition of the work environment. But there are competitive people everywhere and they didn’t all go to elite schools. Looking back over my almost 30-year career and thinking about where the senior leadership of my various companies attended college, I can only think of two who would remotely qualify–a CEO with a BA from Swarthmore and a president with a BA from Boston College. The rest have degrees from places like Aurora College, Bradley University, Eastern Illinois, Slippery Rock, UW-Eau Claire and Miami of Ohio.</p>
<p>@Madaboutx: I don’t see it that way. It really depends on the company and industry and school and maybe region, so you can’t really generalize, but the biggest advantages that I see certain schools give is their network and recruiting opportunities. And for recruiting opportunities, most of the time, it isn’t a question of whether you get to start higher or not but whether a company recruits from your school at all.</p>