Do I have a chance of getting into top schools with a 3.6 UW?

Chance Me / Match Me!
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I’d just like to point out I’m male, before we continue forward.

@Publisher My actual ACT score is a 35 composite, with a 36 in English, a 36 in Science, a 35 in Math and a 34 in Reading.

My current SAT score is 1520, but I have retaken the SAT and I simply await my scores. Same for most of my APs - based on online research, I am guaranteed a 4 for all of them, but there are some where I have a very strong feeling that I will get a 5.

I should simplify my college list. I’ll be applying to a few reaches on intention of going there, and some reaches are just going to be crapshoots (Harvard, Stanford come to mind there as there is a very low chance I’ll be accepted there).

Princeton and UChicago for the economics program there. Yale for the Law department. USC for their engineering. Most other schools have a strong combination of all of these, but these are the “reach” schools that I am the most enamored with. I might apply to more of them, but these are the ones I’m hoping for the most.

Career goals? I’m not totally sure I understand the question.

The following list of ECs is as much as I can remember past midnight. It’s a good start to what my resume will include, but I think it provides the meat of my ECs.

  • Started a web design seminar at my high school
  • Started a Toastmasters affiliate at my local library
  • Started an AI Club at my school
  • Started the STEM Club at my library
  • Organized NJHacks (it's currently in the works, but the event is going to happen early September)
  • Organized the Big Question debate for 2 years at my high school
  • Vice President of the Teal Tea Foundation
  • Executive Board of [nonprofit organization]
  • NHS member (possibly officership position, will figure that out in the fall)
  • Currently starting a nonprofit in my home state
  • Science Olympiad Summer Camp counselor for two years/MathCounts summer camp counselor for 1 year
  • Alternate Varsity tennis team
  • Tons of volunteering hours at different projects in my area (can't remember them all but the sum total is 400+ in March when I did my NHS application)
  • MUN and Debate for 3 and 2 years respectively
  • Freelance Graphic Designer

These are all things I remember as of this moment that are either in the works or have already been completed. I am going to provide my guidance counselor with a list of all the activities that I’m doing, along with people that she can reach if either she wants to confirm the list or colleges want to confirm the list.

Would it be helpful if I indicate on my application what I plan to do, in terms of activities and APs? I am going to take 3 APs along with AT Physics (which covers both AP Physics C courses at my school), and I want to self-study 2 more (including APUSH). Would it improve my chances if I indicated this?

@momofsenior1 Does it matter if I do get deferred? Does that lower my chances?

@justpassingthru Unfortunately so. @GreatKid I’ve heard that my district is extremely academically challenging and could be considered a feeder school. I believe that this class of 2018 had 50+ kids who went to top 20 schools and no one went to a school not ranked within the Top 100 except those who went to the state school.

On the point of LoRs and essays, I believe that I have a strong writing capability and both of the teachers who are writing my recommendations really like me and see that I have a passion for the material and the class.

@lookingforward I didn’t mean to say I was going to be an Economics major, that may have been a mistake on my end. I am interested in Economics, but I haven’t decided for sure what I’m going to major in or what I’m going to tick on my application.

I will continue to update this thread with more information as is requested over time. I just want to thank everyone that commented thus far. It’s kept my head on track and tempered my expectations so I don’t blow my chances trying to hit 20 reach schools. I really do appreciate everyone’s help.

Sorry for the incredibly long post.

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@WoWMaster You are a junior in HS who hasn’t been through the process yet. These schools are marketing to you. They warble about holistic admissions and encourage many students to apply when they know perfectly well that they aren’t gong to admit students with a lot of Bs on their transcripts. You think you are “correcting” parents on this, but what you are doing is misunderstanding the process. It isn’t ALL stats, but unless you are hooked it is STATS FIRST.

The OP has nice test scores. Looking at the ECs they just listed, they’ve started a lot of clubs. But I don’t see the EC “pop” that top schools like and that can overcome a soft GPA. The OP should apply to a few of the high ranked schools they are interested in. But if they don’t add a reasonable list of matches and safeties, they could end up shut out or with almost no choices in the spring.

OP, again… you misunderstand the process. Your GC doesn’t need and probably doesn’t want a list of who to reach for your ECs. No one is going to be calling and checking with those people. Your EC list is busy… but I can’t tell what you are really interested in. It is broad, but not very deep. I don’t see a high level of accomplishment in any one thing. That is another thing that could boost your app a bit and help overcome s soft GPA (state level accomplishments, for example, or something creative/unusual on the list). Adding more different activities isn’t really going to help your application.

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OP -At some schools, the ED rate is much higher than the overall acceptance rate so if you are deferred, you join the regular admissions pool and then yes, the chances then become less. IMO, I would use your ED for those programs that do give a big bump in ED acceptance rate otherwise it’s kind of wasted.

Also, the common app will ask you for your intended courses,

Lastly, being from a competitive high school that is a feeder school will help you!

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OP, you have 2 useful sources of info that we don’t::

Informally, you can look at the ~20% of students from your school who were accepted to those schools last year and this year (ie, you are likely to know something about them, having seen them around / possibly done classes or ECs with them). Look closely: can you see why student A got into Princeton but not Stanford? Look broadly: how does your profile sit beside those students?

More quantifiably: go look at your school’s Naviance and see how students from your school have fared at the colleges on your list. Yes it is only 2 dimensions, but they are dimensions that matter and they are particular to your school. You can overlay what you know from your informal assessments with the Naviance results to get some idea of how realistic your list is.

Your GC is doing the right thing by encouraging you to look for some matches/safer schools: it is harder to be ‘enamored’ by those than the shiny names that you are marinating in right now, but s/he knows that 80% of the class last year did not get into those schools.

You are obviously in a very intense environment, and it is hard to realize that in just a year that intensity will be gone. When my oldest (now former) collegekid had her 5 year HS reunion (from a school that sounds a bit like yours), the vast majority had had very happy and successful college careers, and landed on their feet post-graduation. The Harvard grad is interning at NPR. The (honors) State U grad is now in med school. Most are somewhere in between. The actual time when the name of the college they went to mattered in the way that it does to you right now? From April - June of senior year. Truly. That’s it.

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Econ, law, engineering…

If you take out “started,” “organized,” and “member of,” what you have is stem counselor to younger kids, not peer collaboration . Possible stem major but no hs math-sci activities? Other vol work you really can’t remember (oops.) MUN is good but you started late in debate or dropped it? (Former is ok.)

And clearly, though you want a H or S or P, Y, or Chi…you haven’t looked at the common app and supps? Do you know what they look for?

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Also: for looking at match/safer schools that you might actually be able to get excited about, look more closely at the specifics of what you like about the schools you listed.

For example, Viterbi is a reach (@10%, and overrun with super high stats applicants), but it runs a 3+2 program with a (pretty unusual) group of LACs. You attend the LAC, taking some (very) specific courses while there, for 3 years, then transfer into Viterbi for 2 years, and graduate with 2 degrees (one from each place. This might be a happy option for you, as it would let you blend your humanities and stem sides. Most of the schools that Viterbi works with (list here: http://viterbiadmission.usc.edu/threetwo/) are not going to register on your prestige meter- but there are a bunch of matches, safeties and one or two reaches in there (eg, Pomono). Note that most of the competitive LACs* offer some sort of 3+2 engineering programs- info is online. Dartmouth, WashU, Columbia, GaTech and RPI are the usual suspects for the Engineering side.

*LACs that have engineering: Bucknell, Harvey Mudd, Lafayette, Swarthmore, Smith

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@WowMaster. No, no and no.

You also would benefit (in your own quest) from a closer look. The ECs do not make up for grades. Not at tippy tops. Not at this level of B work. New A grades don’t erase B’s. Active (sort of) verbs do not show responsibilities and impact or even significance.

You would benefit from listening, not telling OP what’s good, months before you even submit your own app. We’ve said and reiterated what OP’s big hurdles are. He needs a better plan. No pulling a rabbit out of a hat will do it. You need to grasp that, just how ridiculously fierce tippy top admissions is.

You risk misleading OP. If he submitted a ready paper tomorrow, it won’t be published before 12/31. You aren’t familiar with the process. He does not need some partnership. He needs the work to recognize and accept that his record is less competitive, there is no magic wand. The record speaks. EC choices speak. How one even describes shows whether one understands. And more.

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Sorry, last one!

Sadly, not at all. Your scheduled APs/ATs will be on your transcript. Your then-current roles / ecs will be on your app. Think for a minute about whether saying ‘I am going to do all these things’ even should help- can you imagine what applications would turn into for the AdComm reader?!

Finally, make yourself complete at least one solid match/safe application for every reach app - at the same time (no batching…). When you see how many essays and how much time that translates to- during the term where you are aiming for all As and in EC leadership roles- you might find it easier to cut some of them back.

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Some schools, like WashU, heavily track demonstrated interest (how many emails you open, visits, talking with admissions) and weigh that into their decision. While your gpa is on the lower side, making it more difficult for you to get into top schools, showing a large amount of interest at a school that tracks it (make sure to verify this online, because not all schools track it and some track it more heavily than others) may slightly increase your chances. Good luck!

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They aren’t swayed by the number of emails you open! True interest isn’t that simplistic. It’s not, “I want you, Iove you, I dream of you.” Nope, it’s far more substantial.

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"More quantifiably: go look at your school’s Naviance and see how students from your school have fared at the colleges on your list. "

This is a great start. To understand the real chances, though, you need to know a little more than Naviance will tell you. An example is from my sons’ HS. Over the past 5 years, there have been multiple admits to Princeton. If you just look at Naviance data, it appears kids from this HS have a larger than normal admit rate to Princeton. Looks awesome! Until you do a little digging and realize that every.single.one of those admits had a significant hook - usually recruited athlete but a few were URM or legacy. When you add in that info, the picture looks much, much worse for unhooked applicants. Not a single unhooked applicant from this school has been admitted in the past 5 years.

So start with Naviance, but don’t take it at face value. Do a little more digging if possible. Because the Naviance picture doesn’t show everything.

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The SAT/ACT scores are nice, but this looks like not all AP classes with a 3.6 UW. Most students at top 30 schools have pretty much all AP classes pretty much all As, and a lot of AP exams with good scores. I don’t see this as top 30, but it may be top 75.

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great example, @milee30- demonstrates the importance of looking at both what you know about the individuals and the objective results.

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@intparent I most certainly agree that I need to have safeties and matches, and most likely those will include the UCs, UofMich, BU and a few others. However, I think I have some things on my resume that are pretty unusual and creative, if not totally fleshed out yet. I might update this later with what I actually accomplish.

@WoWMaster What counts as something significant?

@collegemom3717 Thanks for the advice. I’ve already done something like that, and I’ve noticed that even students who might not have a strong EC record still get into top schools, and I’ve concluded that either they have a hook or their grades made up for mine. So if the rest of my application is as strong as it can get, would that compensate for poor grades? How do I overcome the obstacle that my grades are?

@lookingforward There are a few things I have that aren’t “started”, “organized” and “member of”. I should have also added that I did NOSB for my Junior year (it was only available the Junior year). I know there are a few more, but I cannot remember at the moment. But I absolutely do know that I have some more STEM activities that I haven’t listed, as well as having many STEM oriented tasks as part of my other clubs. I’ve done MUN for 5 years, actually, but that was just involvement in the new MUN conference at my school, and as for Debate, I just started late. Yes, I have looked at the common application and the supplemental essays that have been released by UChicago. I’m currently writing mine as we type.

@collegemom3717 Well, when it comes to the APs, the transcript won’t show the APs I want to self-study. But the general rule is, don’t include things that you’re planning to do, even if they’re currently in the works?

@milee30 I know all of the kids who got into Princeton from my school this year, and I think the number is around 8. 2 of them (twins) got in through legacy, 1 got in through athletics, 1 got in because he is a musical genius and the rest of the 4 got in because they were intelligent and had a strong application. I still do think that some of my resume will be better than theirs (the ECs and the essays), and that’s from knowing these guys for 3 years.

@sattut I’ve taken 6 APs so far, and 4 of them have been As with one of those Bs coming about in the most painful situation imaginable. I will also take 5 AP tests in my senior year, just based on my transcript, and I’ll also be self-studying 2 more, and I don’t know if I should indicate that.

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IMO, you need to broaden the list of schools beyond the top 20.

Having a 3.6 uw GPA is not the end of the game, but it does make the odds against you in a major way. If the low GPA is not something the adcom can say “aye we get it, let’s move on” case, it will be a significant strike against your chances.

DS had an overall GPA in the high 3.6s uw, but it was primarily the result of a serious sports injury during spring of 9th grade - in hospital for extended time, and missed weeks of school, and did the complete damage to the freshmen yr GPA (HS used full year grades, not semester based). The rest of HS, he had near perfect GPAs. The LOR from the sports coach, the teachers taught in his 1st and 3rd yr of HS etc explained the situation (how to maintain a B-avg while missing 45% of the classes and on constant pain medications). If you have a good explaination, that will help (and have the teachers to do the explaining, not you on the common app.)

GPA is really critical w/ adcoms in T30 schools. Plenty of applicants with strong GPA PLUS strong ACT/SAT PLUS strong ECs, that’s the reality. A low GPA will not shut you out but…

You have good SAT/ACT stats, and schools in the T30-T50 should be your target, for example BU, CWRU, NorthEastern etc could weigh the test stats more.

Just broaden the list and treat the T20 schools as some lottery ticket. DS, even with his GPA, was accepted by Umich, CWRU and JHU. So, you never know how the adcoms deal with these things. Still, expand the list and go for the best fit.

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@satlut, that isn’t necessarily true about top schools. Most students go to schools where there are few or no AP offerings. Colleges take into account what is offered.

@WoWmaster, I took my kid with a soft GPA (but slightly stronger test scores and stronger ECs) through this process a few years ago. She got in everyplace she applied, but had a carefully focused list (including several matches & safeties that she’d have been willing to attend, along with 4 reaches) and a very well thought out application But I see lots of kids with similar stats out here who don’t get into top schools. And there were some from her HS class who didn’t (one just got into his safety, which he only applied to because the GC insisted he needed one). I have not said the OP won’t get into a T20, but the odds are more against them than those who typically get accepted. And the more info they reveal about ECs, the less convinced I am. If nothing else, the OP needs to think very hard about their “story” and how they want to be viewed in their app. Those on this thread who’ve been through this and/or have watched a lot of students go by on CC have seen a lot of “T20-itis”. There are MANY great schools outside the T20.

But…I don’t think the OP actually came here for real chances or advice. They are intent on telling us why they are going to get into a T20. Early in the thread they blamed “bad teachers” for their GPA. And they keep saying they just haven’t fully described their ECs, but surely there is something there they’ve just forgotten to tell us that will open our eyes. They want to argue about how they will get in. And they can keep doing that. But adjusting their perception of fit and quality in a college would be a really good idea.

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Students with high HS GPAs and lower test scores, statistically are more likely to succeed than those with lower GPAs and higher test scores. Every school will look at you though that lens. I’m in no way saying your grades are bad, or that you will not succeed. You almost certainly will. The most selective school though will not overlook this for the typical college applicant.

I’ve been going back and forth with @lookingforward on this not based on your record, but based on principal. SOME students clearly do get in with weaker records. They typically have some life story that is particularly compelling. That may mean that they gave lots of money, or are legacies, athletes, under represented minorities, overcame a major life disadvantage in some way. What is clear though is that students from decent schools, with opportunity, which you appear to be, have long odds even with the best records. Come from that background with weaknesses, and that drops close to zero.

Getting back to the Chance Me, you have a very low likelihood of landing at the most selective schools based on your GPA. You can certainly apply, but if you do not mix in less selective programs, you have a very good chance of being one of those posters who get shut out of every school they apply to.

Now, to the good news, it’s not about the school, it’s about what you do. There are MANY schools who would love your enthusiasm and record where you’d get a great education and foundation for a good career. In fact, maybe a better education than you’d get at a highly ranked school. Expand your horizons.

Good luck!

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OP, if you looked at the common app, you’d know it asks for classes this semester and projected for next (or quarters.)

If you are thinking appropriately, you’d understand self studying AP isnt a tip. Listing that you plan to isn’t significant. You wouldn’t write essays before understanding what they’re meant to convey. Nor when you say about ECs, “I know there are a few more, but I cannot remember at the moment.” How do you present yourself when you don’t know what to and haven’t got an inventory of what you’ve done? This isn’t like a hs summer writing assignment.

If you haven’t read their apps and supps, you can’t begin to state why prior kids got in somewhere. You don’t know.

Recruited athletes can get in with stats hiccups. Not even legacies with 50% B, not those colleges.

It’s not about a “compelling” story. I know intparent does, but who else really has an idea what’s “compelling?” Really.

This is a whole lotta spinning of wheels. And if others from the hs- or town or area- apply with stronger records, how do you really think this will line up?

@eyemgh I’ve been with a most-competitive over ten years, have a particular “IME” view. You don’t get in cuz “lightning strikes.” I don’t doubt OP’s chances are different at top 21-50.

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Exactly, @intparent*.

This is the hardest part for ambitious kids who believe- almost certainly correctly- that they are ‘good enough’ in an absolute sense to attend the schools they dream of, but don’t really get the sheer scale of the competition.

The level of competition has driven up both admission and academic standards way up the line. For example, look at the kind of pedigrees faculty at schools at the T50 level have. Parents at the schools we know & here on CC routinely note that they would no longer be able to get into their own alma maters, and schools where the C students were nearly auto-admits are now solidly in the selective column. Both parents and students are still surprised when their high-stats/good profile kid gets rejected/WL at (insert name of not-T20 school).

*like the new avatar, btw :slight_smile:

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@collegemom3717 I absolutely knew my first would thrive at Harvard. Still know it (and she’s mid twenties now.) But she didn’t have the stats. ECs, a lot of good things. But not the stats. A mom (me) who would know how to discuss what they look for, how to angle herself maybe. Family legacy (not mom or dad, so no absolute value,) and more.

But not the stats. Period, the end. Thousands of others lined up with their records.