Do I have a chance of getting into top schools with a 3.6 UW?

Chance Me / Match Me!
101

Nope. The point is to help students find a realistic list of schools that where they can succeed in the academic area they are interested in, get accepted, and afford to attend. It sounds like you and the OP need to broaden your view of what schools can get you to your end goals. Otherwise the OP, at least, may be out here in the spring bemoaning their lack of acceptances and thinking about a gap year. My advice is to stop obsessing about top schools. Sure, keep a few on your list. But start looking at schools farther down the rankings that can be a good fit as well.

My kid with the 3.7/nearly perfect test scores/strong and interesting ECs applied to colleges ranked from #4 in national universities down to around #60 in LACs. She found schools strong in her major, with a campus vibe she liked, ECs that were important to her, and with a location and size that she liked. But it takes elbow grease to find those schools. It is a lot easier to just pore over the rankings and pine for top schools. Or parse every word on CC looking for a magic bean to get you in. In the end, they are all just colleges. You go to class, sit in lectures, ask for help from profs and TAs, study a LOT, take exams, write papers, go out with friends, live in a small room with a roommate, do your laundry, and go to campus events and sporting events. Don’t imbue them with more power or mystique than they really have.

102

@WoWMaster, I had something typed, but @intparent summarized it better. The only thing I’ll add, and you and the OP aren’t the only ones making this mistake…a school’s rank says nothing about how good it is. Many top ranked schools are known to offer a miserable experience (Caltech I’m looking at you) and many lowly ranked institutions are great (think Juniata and Beloit College).

103

Do I understand correctly when I say that the meaning of this last response is that there is little chance I have at a top school if I cannot provide a compelling and legitimate reason as to why my GPA is so low?

104

OP, from all you’ve said so far, I can’t see a “compelling reason” why. This is a ridiculous competition, based on results.

Regardless of who says something encouraging, there is no magic wand you wave that undoes the issues and somehow puts them in some better light. At this point, I don’t see you (or WowM) doing your own realistic assessment. I don’t see you two knowing enough about what these targets do look for, in toto, to understand the uphill.

Most of us are saying, sure, try one or two reaches, but first get thyself into safety and match land. Then see what one or two reaches you later decide to throw a dart at. Not starting with this notion you can aim for the top and, as an afterthought, have some safeties. That’s backwards. It’s not even the level or sort of thinking top colleges will screen you for.

I don’t think this grade issue ruins your life. But you need to think clearly and realistically.

105

Agree with #117. Would just add one thought.

All of these top selective colleges are looking for some very specific things. They all have a set of key characteristics that their AOs review the apps for as part of the admissions decision. An example that has been raised before is that at least one of the top selectives is looking for “collaboration” and that you work well with others both socially and in your academic work. So a selective college looking for that will look for evidence that you have successfully collaborated, that you work well with others and will rate you on that.

But here’s the tricky part - each of these colleges has their own unique set of things they are looking for. One may highly value collaboration and one may not give a rat’s patootie if you collaborate.

For an applicant that already has a weakness in their app - in this case it’s GPA - for that app to have a chance you’d need to be hitting 100% on the other parts of the app being evaluated. How likely it it that you can create one killer but untargeted application that demonstrates the key characteristics that each and every one of those top selectives is looking for? Zero, zilch, none. None of them are looking for a general “good story” or “great kid”; they have very specific things they are reading those apps to find. If they don’t find evidence of those specific, desired things, you can write the most beautiful essay ever or be the greatest student ever and they will still reject you.

So if you want even a chance of admission to the top colleges, you need to completely turn your thinking around. Instead of researching each college to see what they offer that you’re interested in, you need to invest your time seeing what each individual one is looking for and then comparing that to what you could show on your app. Bottom line - do you offer and can you show the exact list of characteristics that specific college is looking for? If you can’t figure it out and/or you can’t show it, then you have very little chance of matching. But if you discover that one or two of them is looking for characteristic X, Y, Z and R and your ECs, LoRs and essays show you are a standout in X, Y, Z and R … that possibly, maybe, could keep you in the running.

It’s the opposite of figuring out what you want. It’s figuring out what they want and doing a realistic assessment if there are one or two that you might be a match then really putting in the effort to show that match on your app. So do your safety and match apps first. Then, instead of shotgunning or picking the top college that you like the most, spend your time seeing which one wants what you offer and put all your best effort into the app for that college to show you offer the exact things they are looking for.

Will that guarantee you’ll get into one of these schools you covet? No. Still a long shot. But it gives you a lot better chance of success than any of the other approaches.

106

I’m assuming “top” to mean highly ranked in USNWR. Highly selective comes with that territory.

With a 3.6 GPA, your chances will be remote. Why? Chances at those schools are extremely remote with perfect stats. Penn and Duke reject 3 of 5 valedictorians. In order to offset that deficiency the readers will need to see compelling evidence to balance. I don’t believe your ECs do, nor do I believe you will find a magic pill between now and application time. Schools know authentic and are used to every attempted fluff there is.

It is true that people with your GPA do get into highly selective institutions, but they usually have a hook, big donors, legacy (usually still highly qualified), athlete, under represented minor, celebrity, etc. You have none of those.

For those reasons, I’d deem all highly selective institutions, regardless of rank, to be high reaches.

I agree with what both @lookingforward and @milee30 just wrote. The “It’s the opposite of figuring out what you want” comment is probably the best approach you’ll get, but consider what the poster is saying. Give up what I want so you can say you go to number X? What if you hate everything about the one you fall into?

I’d suggest you look more deeply into what you do want. All you know right now is the perceived prestige of a flawed ranking system.

Do you care about location? Class size? Do you know that Berkeley has the largest lecture in the nation with over 1000 students. How about who actually teaches those classes? Do you know Harvard has a controversial practice that even their paper has criticized…having undergrads teach undergrad classes? Setting (urban, suburban or rural)? How about this simple metric…weather. You mentioned Rice. I went to professional school in Houston. Do you know how abjectly, god awful the humidity and heat is there? Do you realize Cornell is isolated, competitive, and bitterly cold. Do you care about quality of life while a student? Do you know that not an insubstantial number of the highly ranked schools have suicide rates far above the collegiate average? Do you know which schools those are? Do you have any hobbies you’d like to continue pursuing?

By focusing on rank alone, even if you get in, which it appears is unlikely, you run the risk of having a miserable time. Are you willing to risk that?

107

When I noted collaboration, it’s really about some of the STEM majors which, in practice/IRL are collaborative in nature.

But yes. There’s legit parent concern about not “doing” just for apps. But if you cannot present what they want to see- if you don’t even have a vague idea of what that is or you’re just assuming cuz you read a few bits somewhere…

108

Just in case it wasn’t clear, you should never lie or fluff. But do an honest self-assessment of what you’re strong in. As you start doing the research to figure out which characteristics each one of those schools want and value, you’ll immediately know if that’s “you” or not. When my son and I started doing this, it helped him also understand where he would fit in and where he’d be miserable. If a college was looking for or highly valued a key thing he found to be unpleasant or opposite to who he was, it was a good indicator that no matter how fantastic their math department is, that college wouldn’t want him and more importantly, he wouldn’t be comfy either.

Conversely, there were a few colleges that were looking for the exact things he offered, they valued the same things he did… match.

This is where your possible opening is. When you do this work to figure out what each college wants, you’ll know where you might have a chance of making it and you’ll also know how to structure your app to show them how you are what they are looking for.

109

@milee30, I wasn’t suggesting that you were saying OP lie or fluff.

What I was saying though is that the OP cannot alter their record in any appreciable way here in, and that assumes they get a 1550/35, and that’s not a given. Typically students still taking standardized tests at this point have figure out which format suits them best.

Far more important than that though, I’m saying that reverse engineering a way in, if it works, leaves the OP with the distinct possibility of hating their collegiate experience. Vetting schools on rank alone is a recipe for disaster.

110

"I’m saying that reverse engineering a way in, if it works, leaves the OP with the distinct possibility of hating their collegiate experience. "

Definitely. If that’s all the work they do, then they are definitely exposing themselves to the risk of going to a college that isn’t a great experience. We’re nerdy numbers people, so for us, the analysis part was the start, the interesting part. After the analysis narrowed it down, then visits and other work helped give a clearer picture.

“Vetting schools on rank alone is a recipe for disaster.”

Sing it, sister. But when you tell me that, you’re preaching to the choir. Neither you nor I will be able to convince certain people of that. We can only keep suggesting research and hopefully they’ll figure it out and get where they need to be. Most people do somehow.

111

" It seems that many people who are admitted to the top schools are usually admitted to several top schools. So don’t they all have universal characteristics that they’re looking for?"

There certainly is overlap. It’s not like there’s a pool of characteristics that each college takes turn choosing from and nobody is allowed to repeat once a word has been claimed by another school. But there are some subtle and some not so subtle differences and that’s where you may have some opportunity.

There was a good example in a thread a few months ago when a poster mentioned that every top school wants to admit the next President of the US. That’s not exactly true. None of them are knowingly going to turn down a future president, but it’s not exactly what each is looking for. Of the top 5 USNWR, there’s at least one and maybe two that is looking for the next Nobel Prize winner rather than the next President…

112

@WoWMaster, I would not agree with that. Rank implies quality, and there are perennially highly ranked institutions where the educational quality is poor. Harvard for example is known to have poor undergraduate teaching. Harvard students have said don’t choose Harvard for the teaching. Choose it to be around other smart people. No thanks. Not one, but two Caltech profs warned my son off saying it has an awesome graduate program, but a poor undergraduate program. The engineering rankings are really poor. Harvard and Yale are in the top 25. There’s wide consensus among engineers that Cornell, and at the undergraduate level, to a lesser degree, Princeton are the only two Ivy engineering programs better than pedestrian state programs. So, no, I would not agree. In fact, I think the rankings are one of, if not the worst thing to happen in higher education in the last 50 years. Cost escalation might be it’s only rival.

That’s not to say every highly ranked institution is poor. Certainly there are good ones. That’s to say the USNWR ranking methodology has nothing in it related to quality or outcomes. Nothing.

113

MODERATOR’S NOTE:

Actually, no, that’s not the point of this forum

The is no “and I” on this thread. This is the OP’s thread; trying to turn it into yours is hijacking. Please stop. You’ve received ~200 responses on your own threads for your situation; let’s concentrate on the OP here.

114

Here’s a consideration. Alabama will offer a near full tuition scholarship for your current stats. Baylor offers full tuition and partial room and board. Your weighted GPA might possibly get you a presidential scholarship at TCU. Be sure to apply to these scholarships before the deadlines.

115

@DynamicAero Unfortunately your chances at MIT HYP etc are probably slim unless you have some special sauce. Given your very good grades and anticipated scores I see you as a kid who has never stopped progressing. You could be strategic and apply to NYU, UVA Michigan etc where being full pay (if you are) can really help. Alternately you could go for instate. You get to be financially strategic. Ace your courses and go for the top for grad school. It is not a sprint its a marathon. :slight_smile: good luck!

116

Sorry this is long but we’ve been going over annd over this.

These latest points are all great. There’s more to choosing the right targets than the external perception of rank. Strengths in the major matters. Geography and level of competition during the four years matter. Ancillary opps like internships or research matter. Or the likely chance to work closely with certain profs (more than sitting in their classes.) It’s too superficial to assume USNews (or whatever) thinks these schools are hot, “so they’re for me.”

Nor is it as simple as, say, Yale has a strong rep in prep for law school. One of the first questions we often suggest is whether one wants to be a little fish in a big pond (often stuck trying to stay ahead, not yielding the future results you hope for,) or a bigger fish in a smaller pond (leading.) At the extremes, both have faults. But know yourself (and your future options) well enough to make the right, considered choices for you.

I’ve been trying to fnd a way to explain how, like intparent’s girl, mine didn’t have the obvious record, but still landed at a top 20 (ok, just inside that.) In her case, it had to do with a careful vetting for her major, how it worked at her targets (not just the name of it, but the depth and breadth,) and a careful self assessment of what she offered those schools. At the time, I referred to it as, “Why they would choose me.” Not crapshoot, not “But I want or deserve…,” not, “But I was only .7 off an A grade.” And she matched on ECs, as well. Not, “I like to xxx and you have that activity,” but a record.

Note this: her second choice was on USNews, at the time, at 59, I think. There’s no magic in that, no simplistic reaction, “but it’s so far down the list.” That #2 choice had what she wanted and she had what they did. DH and I were convinced she would receive a strong, meaningful opportunity in her major, that she would thrive and the profs would be glad to have her.

About the universal strengths many want- I’m not the only one who holds back on naming these. A kid has to have that drive to look for it, to try to put the pieces together. Then later, one of us can help fine tune. In my own personal thinking, only after that light bulb goes on over a kid’s head, can we help with that fine tuning. Not from the get-go, not, “Well, tell me what this tippy top looks for.”

And excuses don’t help. As they say, “Close only counts in horseshoes.”

So OP, think about it.

117

I am not sure OP is going to get into top 75. There is a lot of projection, but 3.6 UW, not all AP classes when those are available, and only 2 AP exams.

118

@sattut I am still waiting for 5 standardized test scores to come in. I’ve taken those tests, we’re just waiting on the scores.

119

Respectfully @WoWMaster, I disagree. To demonstrate, take a look at the RD and results threads for Tufts (ranked 29) and Case Western (ranked 37 in USNWR). You will see many applicants with 3.8+ GPAs, high test scores, and compelling ECs that were waitlisted or rejected in recent years. It is foolish to assume that these schools are low reaches, even for highly qualified applicants.

On the contrary, there has been abundant constructive advice on this very thread - look for fit, illustrate what you would bring to the school, construct a compelling narrative about yourself that is supported by your ECs and your essays. Apply ED where it offers a meaningful admissions advantage and if it’s a good fit and financially feasible. How is any of that not constructive?

More to the point, it would be a massive disservice to the OP or anybody else with his profile to raise unrealistic expectations. To be reminded that Top 20 is not a Holy Grail and that a balanced list should feature true matches and safeties is responsible and compassionate.

Here’s a couple of real life examples for you: I know a top student who graduated from a nationally ranked private high school with high GPA and test scores. She was unable to attend her top choices (where she was admitted) because the financial aid didn’t work out. I know another student with a similar profile who got waitlisted at his top schools (20-50 ranking). Both had strong ECs. Both ended up at ASU, where the average ACT of the freshman class is about a 25. ASU ranks 115 per USNWR. It’s Honors College is ranked #1. They are both doing great and are got substantial merit awards as well. @DiotimaDM 's son will be attending UNM on a full ride as a NMF scholar. It also has a respectable honors program but UNM’s ranking is 192 and its average ACT is a 22. I am confident that he will find his people and have a great college experience. There are many paths to success.

120

Then it really depends a lot on your test scores, as you are hoping to show that due to the school being hard or whatever you are at a higher level than the grades imply.