Do I have a change for Juilliard? Any help appreciated :)

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>Hey! I hope this is the right place to post this.</p>

<p>I'm in Australia and our school systems are different (my year 12 ("senior year") finishes this December), so I would have to start at Juilliard 6 months after I finish, or a year and a half if I take a year off first.</p>

<p>Seeing as I'd have to pay for the plane ticket over, I don't want to go if I have no chance of getting in. I have played piano for 6 years, and I'm in grade 8 now. My teacher says I'm great at performance, but I'm working on my sight reading cos it lets me down. To give you an idea of where I am, I am learning the third movement of the moonlight sonata, which is a challenge speed-wise for me. Something like Chopin's etude op 10 no 3 is an example of something I would find a real challenge, and it would probably take me 5 months to get perfect and comfortable with it.</p>

<p>Looking at the repertoire for piano major audition, I'd have to start from scratch, giving me sixth months before pre-screening to learn songs which are about 1-2 levels above me.</p>

<p>I wish I started playing earlier, and I realise I am technically, and in terms of experience, behind people my age who have been playing since they were six or so. But I really love piano, and it is definately what I want to do the rest of my life. I am not sure though if I would automatically get booted from auditions because I choose 'the easy way out' for some of the options (for example, choosing the moonlight sonata over Mozart's sonata in D major for one of the repertoire options).</p>

<p>For those people who have (or did not) get into Julliard (preferrably for piano), can you tell me honestly if I have a chance, or if I should take a year off and build up my technique and repertoire. Also, for those who got in, can I ask what repertoire you played to get an idea of the grade/technique level you have to be at to get in. Sorry for the length of this, I just wanted to give an idea of where I am to give you an accurate idea if I have a chance or if I am just dreaming. </p>

<p>Thanks in advance!!!</p>

2

<p>Wow, where to start....</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Since you've already admitted that you're behind your peers, and schools like Juilliard take the best, you'll have to work very hard to stand a chance.</p></li>
<li><p>Most schools don't care about which songs you choose for audition from the repertoire. Audition for admission is not like audition for a seat in an orchestra. A school admission audition is a diagnostic and in most cases, you'll never finish a single piece. The faculty wants to hear what level you're playing at, what are your strengths and weaknesses and will they be able to work with you to improve both of those areas in the future.</p></li>
<li><p>Got to ask this, "Why Juilliard?" Is there a specific person there you want to study there with or is it, "because it's Juilliard"? If your answer is the latter, you may want to think a bit harder on the topic. For years, my D wanted to go to Juilliard in the worst way. During her first visit in March of her Junior year, she realized that she had never met a more stuck up bunch of students and she wanted no part in even applying there. Our tour guide was really self-absorbed. Many answers to questions were "because we're Juilliard." I was so fed up I had to bite my tongue to keep me from saying, "If you're such a gift to the world of music how come you're not at Curtis?" D is thrilled to be enrolled at Peabody. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Now don't get me wrong, Juilliard is a wonderful place with many wonderful and talented students, but like ANY school, it is important to visit to see if you feel that you fit in there. Keep your mind open and do more investigations, but take time to continue practicing.</p>

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<p>Just to add a few points. Even if you were more accomplished and had been playing longer your chances of getting into Julliard would still be slim. They take the best of the best from around the world. The only way to know for sure is to audition. Even though you are behind hundreds of others that will apply, if they believe you have the potential you could still be accepted. But if your looking for a guarantee before you spend the money for the ticket, even someone that has heard you play can not give you that, not for Julliard, not even for a far lessor school.</p>

<p>I also am curious about why you only show interest in Julliard. And why you seem to think your school year ending in December is an issue.</p>

<p>I wish I could be more encouraging, but maybe a year or two in Australia where they have some fine schools and then a transfer or aiming toward a post grad degree in the US.</p>

4

<p>The chances are slim for everyone in every instrument. However, the prescreening process if fairly efficient, and they will not invite you to come for an in person audition unless you are very accomplished technically and show some special spark. It would be fine to have that as a goal, so long as work on the prescreening repertory does require you to skip some technical development steps, and you wind up banging through the music. Perhaps since you have made such great progress with this teacher, you should work as efficiently as you can, and see where you are when it would be time to make a prescreening tape. Let your teacher know the kinds or repertory you would need, and let the teacher help you progress. Good luck.</p>

5

<p>
[quote]
she realized that she had never met a more stuck up bunch of students and she wanted no part in even applying there. Our tour guide was really self-absorbed. Many answers to questions were "because we're Juilliard." I was so fed up I had to bite my tongue to keep me from saying, "If you're such a gift to the world of music how come you're not at Curtis?"

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Umm. Wow. Glad you found a school that fits you better. I admit, I also wondered why the OP wanted Juilliard so bad. I emailed my S at Juilliard to ask his opinion of the OPs chances, but he hasn't responded yet. Guess he's too caught up in himself.</p>

<p>My first experience with Juilliard was during auditions, and I couldn't have had a more different experience. Everyone was friendly, helpful, and encouraging. My S is finishing his sophomore year, and if anything, he's found Juilliard to be a place where students support each other and cheer each other on. In his case, his teacher - who would have also been his teacher at Curtis - decided S would "fit" better at Juilliard, and he agrees. Your question makes as much sense as someone saying if you're so great why aren't you at -- pick a school, any school. Yale? Harvard? London School of Economics? Salzburg Mozarteum? People chose schools for lots of reasons. If it's meant as a barb, it only shows ignorance.</p>

<p>The question with the OP has us concerned that he is chosing a school for name only. However, chosing a school - especially a music program - by reputation is not a bad thing. The OP is out of the country, it makes sense that he might not know all the options available. Can we help him without slinging mud?</p>

<p>I sometimes hesitate to admit my kid goes to Juilliard -- it puts chips on a lot of shoulders needlessly. Anybody who's spent any time at all pursuing music knows the extent to which it can be arbitrary. I do not think less (or more) of your child who goes to Peabody. Perhaps she chose it for fit? What a concept.</p>

<p>Sorry if I sound offended, but I am.</p>

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<p>It is impossible for anyone to assess your talent or ability on a forum such as this. Even telling us the rep that you are playing doesn't really help. I would suggest that you find a college or university in Australia with a reputable music program and ask to play for one of the professors in the piano department. If you can find one that studied at Juilliard, all the better. Ask this person for an honest assessment of your playing and to give you some recommendations. You also need to be looking at other piano programs either in the US or Australia. This is true even for folks who have a very good shot at admission to J. And as Lorelei stated above, you will have to send a screening tape first before you will be invited to audition. If you pass the screening process, you can then decide if you want to go and audition.</p>

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<p>I agree that there is absolutely no way to judge your ability on an anonymous forum. The only way I can put this into perspective for you is to tell you about my own son, who showed prodigious talent on the piano as young as six and began lessons in earnest at 7; he is now almost 16 with a fully developed repertoire, as well as several regional competitions under his belt AND God given natural musicality, and probably STILL isn't good enough for Juilliard!</p>

<p>(Which is really a good thing, because he wants a conservatory in a university setting anyway).</p>

<p>Piano performance is just incredibly competitive. No matter how talented I think my own kid is, and others agree, we sometimes hear kids in regional performances and I realize that there is just a huge pool of very talented kids.</p>

<p>That said, I'd agree to keep working, have others listen to you and critique your play, and prepare for your dream, if that's what it is! Good luck.</p>

8

<p>Thank-you so much for your replies :)</p>

<p>"And why you seem to think your school year ending in December is an issue."</p>

<p>The reason for this is because depending on whether I get into uni's here or overseas makes things difficult. For example, if I auditioned over here and got in, my fees are due in march, meaning I would have to pay all of them up front, so if I then went overseas and got into a school over there, I would lose all the money. I would also miss out on uni time over here. Alternatively, if I decided to "take a year off" over here before going overseas, it would effectively be taking 2 years, because to prevent the mistake of paying and losing fees, I would have to wait to see if I got in overseas, and then wait till December to apply again over here. I just feel this sets me back quite a bit.</p>

<p>"I also am curious about why you only show interest in Julliard."</p>

<p>I realised this after I posted. To be honest, the only schools I know of over there that are specifically for music are Juilliard and Curtis. I was posting on another board asking for schools and a lot of people were saying don't bother with Curtis and it is too political etc. My interest is Juilliard is not just because "oooh I like that name", it's because I have heard good things about it and what it can do for students. I personally don't think that is a bad thing to choose a school by, but you are free to disagree. It is a good idea to take a tour of the school though.</p>

<p>I guess my reason for posting was, say I said I was in grade 5, you would probably say "you're not at the desired level yet", so I wasn't looking for a "yes you have a great chance of getting in" really, but more of whether I have absolutely no chance at my current level and should build up my technique. </p>

<p>If you have any other schools to recommend, I would be very very happy to hear them. As I said, I've only heard of Curtis and Juilliard as music conservatoires on their own. Juilliard is at the moment my first preference, and mostly because of the recs I have heard about it, or what I've read about it. Thanks for your help :D</p>

<p>EDIT: By the way Binx, thanks for taking the time to email your son about my chances :) :) :)</p>

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<p>Hi VDM - It sounds like you are very interested in coming to the states to study piano, and so you need to know that there are literally thousands of wonderful music schools and fantastic teachers everywhere! Hopefully you'll get some good advice from the smart folks on this board. Julliard is a long-shot for anyone... it's just so highly competitive. That doesn't mean you can't work very hard on their requirements and even send in the audition CD or tape. But research all of the other possibilities. I would like to ask.. do you have any other talents that might be marketable as far as selling yourself to a US university/conservatory? For example, are you a great tennis player? I only ask, because sometimes scholarships are readily available for foreign students at many colleges here, because they love to bring in students from other countries who can not only benefit from the experience of living and studying here, but American students get alot out of getting to know students from other countries. Just a quick example... my son will be attending UNT (University of North Texas), and I note that at least 1/3 of the women's tennis team is from out of country. Don't give up your dream and keep in touch with us!</p>

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<p>Hi Violinmom! I noticed on this board a lot of people have a lot of extra curicular activities to put on their application...we don't really do all that stuff here, like we don't have tennis clubs and cheerleading etc. I'm not sure if it would be marketable for a conservatory but I get pretty high grades at school; I've been top of my class since primary school, and for my UAI (like a state-ranking for university admissions over here), I am aiming for 98 or above and I am sure I will get it cos I put a lot of work into my schoolwork. Does this count as something 'special'? Or do I look like a complete idiot now lol. I am very interested in coming over there to study, as I feel like taking a break to travel but I also want to get started on getting a music degree, so I would love to study in a new country and combine both!</p>

<p>EDIT: always forget things lol...can anyone suggest a few music schools over there which are good for piano major to get me started on my research? Thanks :D</p>

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<p>Since my S isn't majoring in piano, I don't know that much about what schools are good for it. My S has a friend who is majoring in collaborative piano at Indiana University. I know she was also very interested in Eastman. Don't know if she ultimately didn't choose it, or vice versa. </p>

<p>I forgot when I emailed my S that today is his last day of school, and he is busy with finals and packing up. He leaves tonight for an overnight flight here, so maybe I will have more to tell you tomorrow. I will tell you that when he first got to Juilliard, he was interested in continuing his piano a bit, and took a non-credit course in "remedial" piano, designed for piano majors who had certain areas of weakness. The class was quite small, but he was surprised at the poor sight-reading skills of the students in the class. They were most all international students, and apparently sight-reading isn't valued the same in other countries. He was the only non-major in the class, and way ahead of them in this area, although they could play circles around him otherwise.</p>

<p>I think there's a lot of good advice on this thread, especially about getting advice "live". If you decide at any point to "visit" any campuses, be sure to arrange for lessons while you're there -- That feedback would be extremely valuable, to know if you're headed the right direction. Does your teacher think you are conservatory material? Is your teacher him/herself from a conservatory (and therefore knows what he/she is talking about concerning the level of play)? </p>

<p>Concerning ECs, My S's high school life revolved around music - still does. He had nothing on his resume that wasn't music related (except, like you, he was also strong academically.) This did not hold him back at the schools he was interested in. In fact, I think they saw it as evidence that music was really his passion. He was awarded "Presidential Distinction" which specificially stated it was due to his combination of music and academic excellence.</p>

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<p>Hey Binx! :D I'm not too sure about what my teacher really thinks. She didn't sound like my ideas of auditioning were expected, so maybe she didn't really know I wanted to take music to the level beyond hobby, I don't know. I think I might have to get more insight from her on this. You're son's resume sounds fantastic, I am trying to build up my music participation around my school; but my school doesn't have much to offer, just a few performances at information and presentation nights as well as a few school competitions (we don't have a band). I'm on the hunt for a "piano remedial" class over here since I read your post. The auditions for the main conservatory here do not require sight reading, the only time I've ever done it is when it comes time for exams because we are tested on it during the examination. That said, if you can't sight read, you can still get an A if the rest of your work is great, so perhaps you're right when you say it is valued less overseas. Its definitely something I have to work on a lot though.</p>

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<p>Binx: Point taken. In my desire to highlight to VM that it's of paramount importance to visit a school to determine "fit," I got a bit carried away. I did have a "disclaimer" in the last paragraph, and certainly meant no offense. Unfortunately, this tour guide was an extremely poor representative for the prestigious institution he attends; all of the parents on this particular tour commented amongst themselves on the "attidue" level. Regardless, "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa..." </p>

<p>VM: A few additional things...</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Your private teacher is a critical partner in the process of a successful conservatory search. If this is news to your teacher at this point, you must start talking sincerely about it between the two of you.</p></li>
<li><p>ECs may be important, but honestly, in the conservatory sitting they pale, as do grades and standardized tests, when compared to the audition. That's the biggest part of the process as you can ascertain when you visit the web sites of the different conservatories.</p></li>
<li><p>Since you're a "late starter" is a more realistic, and probably better suited path, one that has you attend a music program "down under" for undergraduate so you can build you skills and connections in attempts for a graduate school admission to a conservatory/university outside of Australia?</p></li>
<li><p>Finally, for a point of reference, are you cognizant of the tuition and fees for US schools? I don't know the prices in Australia, but my European friends feel that anything for $1500 and over (yes, fifteen hundred) is unbelieveably expensive for college. With schools like Eastman and Juilliard running close to $40,000 per year you may want to consider that figure in your equation. Granted, exceptional students do get different levels of aid, and I'm not counting loans, but even with a substantial level of aid, you'll have to come up with $20,000 per year for your costs.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Just some thoughts....</p>

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<p>ImpZep (all my kids have short names, cause I'm too ADD for long ones. ;) ) - Appreciate your response, and I do understand how it can happen. Nuff said.</p>

<p>And I think you have some very good points. Vie-de- Do look at her list carefully. If there is a school in Australia you can start with, you can look at a transfer or grad school elsewhere later. There are also a lot of good schools in the US in which you can do the same. If money is an issue, look hard at which ones give aid to International students (not many). I am concerned that your teacher was surprised, (concerned because often teachers of highly talented students are pushing those students for further education, not the reverse) and will be interested to see what she has to say in the near future, now that she knows what you want.</p>

<p>Building up your resume is a great idea. Look outside school activities. Once a student gets "really good" it is not unusual for him/her to venture further for experience, and there's not a lot of use for a pianist in most bands and orchestras anyway. Look for paying gigs. Church. Accompanist. Weddings. Even teaching beginner students. Summer camps are a great way to meet people and gain experience and get lessons from someone different.</p>

<p>One last thought, for what it's worth. If you want music, but don't see yourself as a soloist or accompanist (about all there is for a pianist), you may want to consider other fields in music - anything from music ed to church musician to music therapy....</p>

<p>I lied. This is really my last thought: Have you ever played organ? The demand for organists is incredible.</p>

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<p>My only advice for you would be to continously work your harders and accomplish the most you can. In order to be accepted into Juilliard, you not only need the talent, but the ambition and the love of music. </p>

<p>My moto for life is to always give things a shot. Never live with regrets for not having tried something. My teacher said to me "Take the Leap, the net will be there" and she was right. If Juilliard is what you want, at least apply. if things are looking positivly and you make it past the prescreening round, decide then what your options are and what you want to do. Juilliard is never a sure thingfor any one... so deffinatly don't put all of your eggs in one basket-especially not that one. But give it a try. otherweise you will live the rest of your life thinking "what if". </p>

<p>Best of luck to you, and keep us updated!</p>

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<p>ImperialZeppelin: Congratulations! Peabody is a great school, and Fleisher is unparalleled. My teacher went there in the 60s and studied with Fleisher and Hautzig. He said Fleisher, especially, was unbelievable, and he likes to repeat Hautzig aphorisms ("I don't care if you play with your nose, get it right"). I don't think Hautzig is there anymore, but Fleisher is. Congratulations!</p>

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<p>Thank-you so much everyone! So much great advice, so many options! I think I will definately have to just do the best I can, see where I am around the time of pre-screening, and otherwise grad school or transfer sounds great too. Thanks so much, I didn't really think before about all these other options, and now if I do decide to go over, I will definitely be applying for these other schools you have mentioned. Thanks again :) :D</p>

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<p>My S doesn't really have anything new to add from what's been already posted. (He arrived here today.) He said the piano dept at Juilliard is divided between piano performance and collaborative piano. He said you're up against some of the best pianists from all over the world, many of whom have played piano a lot longer than you. But he says there are also some who haven't played as long - but that every pianist is pretty amazing there. He is concerned about your comment that it would take you 5 months to learn the Chopin - that doesn't fit with the pianists he's met.</p>

<p>He also said that lots of students (not limited to piano) start out at other schools and come to Juilliard after getting a grounding elsewhere. He knows of one pianist from New England Conservatory, for instance, but he says they come from all over, and doesn't really know which specific schools are good for piano.</p>

<p>I realize this doesn't really help you much, but since I said I'd asked him, I thought I'd share his answer.</p>

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<p>Thanks Binx. It's helpful to know how I compare with the people who are actually at the school. Yeah, I added that about the Chopin to highlight the fact that I am behind, and whether it mattered being so far behind. But I'm really glad I asked on here because now I know there are sooooo many more options. Thanks guys! :D</p>

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<p>There are already many excellent advices - my internet is down for a few days... </p>

<p>Vie de musique: I applied to Juilliard last fall, rejected outright in the prescreening round, and am going Peabody next fall for a piano performance degree. The prescreening round is very tricky, I know it because I was rejected from all the schools I sent a prescreening tape (namely, Juilliard and Eastman) and was accepted by all the school that do NOT require a prescreening tape (namely, Peabody, New England Con., and U of Maryland School of Music). I imagine the prescreening process is a very basic evaluation, with perhaps no more than 2-3 minutes on each applicant, and usually only a very small percentage will get a chance to audition - which is a much better way to evaluate the applicants. So, here is roughly my story: I don't have well-prepared recordings at hand, and my audition program is far from good by the time I need to send out the prescreening tape (Nov.30 or 31 is date, by the way), so I sent out a pretty uneven tape - and, obvious, it's not good. - End of story. </p>

<p>I hate to bash your hope, but your chance of getting into Juilliard is slim to none. There are wonderful, wonderful pianists out there who got rejected every year, and from what I heard, even if you are a great pianist, if you are not in some way connected to the profs in Juilliard - for example, you studied in the prep. of Juilliard with one of the prof, your teacher and the prof are good friend since their conservatory time, etc. - you just cannot get in. The truth about the piano world is that there are way more qualified pianists than there are places in the great conservatories. </p>

<p>However, do apply to Juilliard - miracles do happen... and you won't really lose anything by applying to Juilliard except $100 and a little bit sadness when you are rejected. But there are great schools in the U.S. for piano, Peabody, as people mention above, is a great place to study the piano, although do not expected to get Fleisher - he hardly teaches much nowaday, and when he teaches, he teaches only grad students with almost no exception. Also take a look Eastman School of Music, they have such a wonderful piano faculty around; Manhattan School of Music, it's just next to Juilliard, and some Juilliard teachers also teach in Manhattan; New England Conservatory, I'm not that sure about the piano faculty, but it's definitely a great music school. There are just soooo many options beside Juilliard, and take advantage of them! </p>

<p>A few comments on the pieces you mentioned: there are no easy way out in Juilliard's required program. The Moonlight Sonata, of course, is not Op.106, but to get it right and good enough for Juilliard is not a easy job. The Mozart sonata in D is a VERY hard piece - I played it for all my auditions - it took me a full half-year to make it sound right, and the 3rd mvt is especially tricky and needs very high skills technically to make it sound easy instead of mechanical notes(if you know what I mean ^_^). The Juilliard people do not exclude all other Mozart sonatas except this one for good reasons. </p>

<p>Chopin etude. Op.10 No.3 is probably not acceptable for Juilliard (or any good music schools that ask specifically for a fast etude). But that aside, I'm not sure what you mean by "get perfect", this etude, though technically not as difficult as the other etudes, is very hard to be perfect - in fact, one great pianist (I can't recall his name) said something about even after few decades of practice he still think the piece is unready for public performance. For etudes in general, I think all people who have the chance to audition in Juilliard have almost immaculate technique - everything's perfect note- and speed-wise, but only those people who plays <em>music</em> in addition to technique got in. </p>

<p>Also, to give you more info on the level of playing: if you happen to know very well the Chopin Ballades (they are probably one of the most popular choices for auditions), the level expected will be not only at least 99% perfect on all the technical stuffs but also with feelings, with mature interpretation, etc.</p>

<p>EDIT: Wow, I wrote way too much. I thought I will also add a </p>

<p>GOOD LUCK</p>

<p>Because luck factor is very heavy in college auditions.</p>