<p>re post#19 - there are certainly other guidebooks out there beside USNews. a 17 y/o h.s. senior with reasonable reading comprehension skills would not be stranded w/o its yearly horse-racing metaphor tipping the scales.</p>
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</p>
<p>AE, you criticize me for not giving a source (2009 US News & World) and then you make this statement as though it were a fact “It’s significantly lower than HYP’s, higher than Cornell’s, and about the same as the rest” and you give NO evidence and NO source.</p>
<p>I’m sorry, I’m very proud of having gotten into Swarthmore and I agree that writing on someone’s forum that you’re applying there as, effectively, a safety school is quite a faux pas. On the other hand, I’m going to have to bring up a point of mathematics (particularly to Quasiprofound): which is to say, </p>
<p>acceptance rate = # students accepted/total # of applicants * 100</p>
<p>Therefore, if total number of applicants goes up, as it does at Harvard, acceptance rate goes down. The reason Harvard is harder to get into than Swarthmore (and it definitely is, in terms of this, SAT scores, GPA, any hard measure of achievement) is that tons and tons of people apply there. Even if you assume that half of the people applying to Harvard are completely worthless and threw out those numbers from the applicants (thus multiplying their acceptance rate by two) it would still be much lower than Swarthmore’s acceptance rate. I don’t think that means that all the ivies are harder to get into than Swarthmore - I don’t know the stats - and I certainly don’t think that this makes Harvard students better than Swatties (Swatties are the best!!) but it is simply harder to get into Harvard.</p>
<p>^^then, may ppl are just reading too much into the word, “selective”; it makes the respective student bodies sound like cuts of meat.</p>
<p>No doubt Harvard is the biggest and best brand name in the college business…</p>
<p>in terms of the education you receive there, that is another question… based on my own experience and what I know of other places, Swarthmore is second to none in that dept… there may be others just as good but not likely any better. Of course I’m biased as can be… :)</p>
<p>A.E.</p>
<p>I graduated from hs in 1969 and was well aware of Swarthmore back then, well before the idiotic rankings became all the rage. </p>
<p>As far as choosing a college, there are better resources than magazines whose only goal is to sell more magazines.</p>
<p>Here we go again…</p>
<p>
This has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making. USN&WR has done more to popularize elite schools than any other guidebook. Other guidebooks exist now because of the market USN&WR helped to create, or at least embiggen. There’s a good chance that if USN&WR never existed that people growing up in disparate parts of the country, or world, may not have heard very much about colleges in other regions.</p>
<p>
Listen, are you going to post a source or what? Everyone and his brother knows that the students who go to HYP collectively have far better stats than those at Swarthmore, for whatever that’s worth. When it comes to Dartmouth, Columbia, etc., things are a little more unclear, but I think everyone here willing to perform a quick Google search can agree that everything I’ve said thus far is true: that most of the Ivies have a lower acceptance rate than Swarthmore, that most of the Ivies have a higher proportion of students who were in the top 10% of their high school class, and that most of the Ivies have an average SAT score at least as high as Swarthmore’s. You are the one trying to post exact numbers. Where are those numbers from? When are they from? What do they even tell us about anything that has been said so far?</p>
<p>The bottom line is simple: the Ivies are generally harder to get into than Swarthmore. How you elect to interpret this fact is up to you.</p>
<p>
Well, I’m sorry to tell you that you couldn’t be more wrong. I went to Swarthmore and encountered more than one product of a prep school who was disappointed to go to Swarthmore, but had been rejected from more selective schools. I imagine this is how I would have felt if I’d ended up at the University of North Carolina or something like that. If you don’t think there are quite a few people at Swarthmore who are only there because they got rejected from their top choices, you’re kidding yourself.</p>
<p>
This is really a lot of nonsense. Who cares why a school is harder to get into? Yes, I’m aware that more people apply to Harvard. So what? That makes it harder to get into! This is what I’ve been saying! It’s harder to get into! If you want to learn the numbers for the rest of the Ivies, well, [here</a> you go](<a href=“http://■■■■■■■.com/cr6s3v]here”>http://■■■■■■■.com/cr6s3v).</p>
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Where were you from? What did your parents do? My dad graduated from high school in the same era as you did, and I don’t think he had heard of Swarthmore. He was from Georgia, and his parents were not really academically-oriented, and his community was a mill town, not a college town. But, he was definitely academically-oriented. He ended up going somewhere much closer to home than Pennsylvania would have been. I don’t think he made a bad choice or anything, but he definitely didn’t have the wealth of information available to him that I did when I was searching for a college several decades later, after USN&WR had begun its reign of terror (which obviously pales in comparison to that available now).</p>
<p>
Thanks for sharing, but that has little to do with my point.</p>
<p>A.E.</p>
<p>Since you asked, I will share some of my background.</p>
<p>I was born in another country and came to the US at the age of 13. My parents, who were both university graduates in our country, had absolutely no input in my search for colleges. The educational system here was totally foreign (pardon the pun) to them and they were struggling with English while trying to make ends meet after having lost everything that we had ever owned or cherished, other than their ethics, pride, courage and dreams of freedom. I realize all this sounds a little corny but it is sincere and true. My parents did impart a love of learning and the importance of an education, but to them the local college sufficed, something I have heard my own mother and aunts repeat as they bemoan the “tragedy” of my kids going to school so far away from home… </p>
<p>At the time that I was looking at colleges I lived in Maryland and that may have been a function of why I knew about Swarthmore since it was a school in a relatively close state. However, I spent a great deal of time looking at books in the guidance office, local library and talking to teachers. Other compatriots of mine at my hs, who came to this country under the same circumstances and similar background, were content with going to the local colleges or simply go to work after graduating from hs. I was curious about what else was out there and made it a point to find out more about it.</p>
<p>If your assumption was that I had resources, it is totally wrong. I hand wrote applications because we did not own a typewriter, not even a manual one. I never took any SAT prep courses because I did not know that they existed and no one ever mentioned them. Frankly, until writing this I had not even thought about whether those courses were around back then, or how popular they might have been. However, the point is that any hs student, interested in pursuing an education, will make it his or her business to look for information if mom and dad are not involved in the search. I saw this as my kids were going through the college search process. </p>
<p>I have been involved in academia since 1986 and in the accreditation ritual that institutions of higher ed undergo. So it is only natural that I guided my kids and suggested schools that they should consider taking into consideration their personalities and those of the schools that I suggested. Ultimately, the decision as to where to apply and attend was theirs, one ended at Brown, the other at Swarthmore.</p>
<p>As my kids were going through the process I saw peers whose parents had little or no input. My kids steered some my way to share some of what I knew. Other kids asked on their own without any prompting. I have been glad to pay back the kindness that adults had shown me when I was teenager and totally clueless about the educational system in this country. </p>
<p>In the grand scheme of things, an education can be obtained anywhere, even outside of school. My own interest in helping my kids was to identify schools where they would “fit” and thrive so that they could have a truly enjoyable college experience. I knew that neither of them would have been happy at a large or small fraternity/sorority football loving school or at schools far from urban centers. The interests of the kids with whom they went to school and educational offerings were far more important considerations than magazine rankings. </p>
<p>Identifying a school for my daughter was more difficult than for my son. I was well aware of Swarthmore’s educational quality but I did not have specific knowledge about its theater department. It only became a viable possibility after reading in a directory of theater programs about the offerings of Swarthmore’s theater department. Swarthmore had been nowhere on my radar as a possible good fit for her until we looked at the theater directory. This is an example of a good source of information where a meaningful search can begin, instead of just applying by the ranking numbers.</p>
<p>Incidentally, I learned about the existence of the directory on another thread right here on cc. A theater professor had mentioned it on a thread upon which I stumbled while googling for theater programs on the internet. At that point my d was finishing middle school and was heading to hs. My son was already at Brown. Realizing that theater was d’s passion, and not being familiar with theater programs, I knew I had some catch up to do if I was going to try to help her the way I had helped her brother. At that point I had never heard of college confidential either, and if you are still reading, you will have realized by now the origin of my cc moniker.</p>
<p>Thus in coming full circle on my earlier post, I still feel that USN&WR has been more of a hinderance than a help. You are correct that not all schools can be researched in depth. However, students and parents would be better served by researching other sources on the internet and libraries. For us, the directory of theaters was a good start. The colleges’ websites was the next step. There is a wealth of information that can be obtained from the websites of the colleges themselves, including the college’s own newspapers in order to narrow what schools to visit. Choosing where to apply on the basis of ranking, like many do, can lead to a miserable experience at a time when a child fortunate enough to live in this country, and able to go college, should be about to embark on the best years of his/her life.</p>
<p>^^hear, hear.
A.E. wrote:
[quote]
Originally Posted by johnwesley
re post#19 - there are certainly other guidebooks out there beside USNews. a 17 y/o h.s. senior with reasonable reading comprehension skills would not be stranded w/o its yearly horse-racing metaphor tipping the scales.[end of quote] </p>
<p>“This has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making. USN&WR has done more to popularize elite schools than any other guidebook. Other guidebooks exist now because of the market USN&WR helped to create, or at least embiggen. There’s a good chance that if USN&WR never existed that people growing up in disparate parts of the country, or world, may not have heard very much about colleges in other regions.”</p>
<p>Well, thank you for clarifying your point. Now you’ve gone from simply endorsing their methodology to crediting USNews for the existence of every other source book on college admissions. That’s pure speculation on your part. You have no idea what might have been put in place but for USNews’ occupying the field. It also begs the question whether encouraging waves of applicants to focus on the same dozen or so colleges and universities is even a good thing?</p>
<p>Students who like Swarthmore sometimes/often like Carleton, Grinnell, Oberlin, Reed and UChicago, in case Swarthmore doesn’t admit you.</p>
<p>
I’m sure I agree with you here, but where does a 17 year old kid with straight As and perfect SATs begin? He has to learn about the existence of elite institutions and then learn their identities before he can visit their websites. A Google search will undoubtedly prove helpful, but it’s almost certain it will point to USN&WR rankings or to lists derived in some measure from them.</p>
<p>
Right, and there’s a good chance you had never heard of Pomona or Reed or other places far away from you. I know that was the case for my dad. Colleges had far more regional student bodies back then. The people I know in my dad’s generation who went to Swarthmore were either from the region (Pennsylvania or a bordering state) or were Quakers.</p>
<p>
Are straw man arguments tolerated at some top liberal arts institutions? Because that’s what you have here, and I doubt it would fly in even the lowliest of PDCs at Swarthmore. All I said is that USN&WR helped create, or at least expand, the elite college market and helped solidify in the minds of American high schoolers what elite colleges are. It has irrevocably altered the landscape of higher education, for better or for worse. Are you really going to argue against that?</p>
<p>you do realize that you have an irritating habit of accusing people of misquoting you then going right ahead and saying exactly what they said you did in the first place, right?</p>
<p>A.E.</p>
<p>I am glad that you mentioned Reed. It is an excellent example of how the rankings are flawed, and in my humble opinion, meaningless. </p>
<p>At 54 in the USNWR rankings, Reed is often passed over by the straight “A” elite conscious student that might be helped if we were to accept that the rankings are a good starting point. Reed is not top 10 or even top 50 in the rankings, yet it is recognized by those who work in academia as an intellectual powerhouse. </p>
<p>Why is Reed 54, way behind less academically rigorous institutions? Because to its credit, it has refused to play the USNWR game by not submitting any data. An explanation of Reed’s relationship with the magazine can be found in its admissions site: [Reed</a> College Admission Office](<a href=“http://www.reed.edu/apply/news_and_articles/college_rankings.html]Reed”>http://www.reed.edu/apply/news_and_articles/college_rankings.html) </p>
<p>And by the way, although I had not heard of Pomona when I was in high school, I did know of Reed and it is one of the schools that my d seriously considered and could have easily picked over Swarthmore. It was a hard decision for her and geographic location tipped the scales in favor of Swarthmore as the May 1st decision deadline loomed closer and closer. My d is very happy at Swarthmore and I believe that she would have been quite happy at Reed too. In reality, there are many “perfect” schools if an effort is made to learn more about them.</p>
<p>Reed and Swarthmore are both outstanding institutions. I find the gap in rank between the two, disconcerting, particularly when taking into consideration some of the schools that outranked Reed. I am too much of a cynic to accept that a number of those schools made their way to the top without data manipulation and admissions strategies specifically designed to boost the numbers. And so, without naming publications, I will continue to insist that there are much better alternatives to the USNWR as a source of information, some of which have been around longer than USNWR rankings, and may, in fact, have been the source of inspiration for the magazine to embark on this enterpri$$$e.</p>
<p>I used the USNWR rankings when I was trying to figure out where to apply for college. I was aware that ranking colleges is idiotic, but it’s useful for finding quick information like average SAT scores. I can’t remember what other information is there. I think it listed percentages of people of color too. As long as you ignore the rankings and focus on the colleges and the data they present, it can be useful. I knew I wanted to go to a pretty selective college, and with the rankings I could quickly locate data that suggest, the applicants to those schools have good grades, or, those students probably don’t take academics seriously enough for my preference. You can use the rankings and think, hey, those colleges attract students with pretty good grades and test scores. I’ll explore those further. So they helped me find schools that I could further research. I didn’t just use the rankings. Otherwise I wouldn’t have really heard much about Reed.</p>
<p>“and with the rankings I could quickly locate data that suggest, the applicants to those schools have good grades, or, those students probably don’t take academics seriously enough for my preference.”</p>
<p>Since you mentioned it, if you actually did this, you would not find Reed. Yes, you said later that you didn’t just use the rankings. I’m just emphasizing the flaw of using the rankings. The USNWR data collection is excellent; they should just get out of the one-size-fits-none ranking business.</p>
<p>
It seems now you’re just ■■■■■■■■; you can’t actually believe what you’re posting.</p>
<p>
This is precisely my point. Maybe it’s not fair, but you can’t deny that USN&WR has totally changed the landscape of higher education. Many straight-A elite students don’t even look at Reed. Many people hiring college graduates don’t give Reed graduates serious consideration. You may see these things as meaningless, but status symbols, such as a USN&WR ranking, are prevalent in the minds of many people.</p>
<p>
Why won’t other colleges get on board? I’m sure in some cases the admissions personnel naively believe that USN&WR provides an invaluable service and that it is their duty to participate, but I think for most, especially those near the top, like Swarthmore, they continue to participate because they fear losing out on the benefits such a status symbol affords them.</p>
<p>
Right. The problem is there are just too many schools out there for anyone to ever be certain that he has found one of the “perfect” ones. At best, you can narrow it down with the available tools such as USN&WR or the various guides and then start an in-depth examination from there. Perhaps Pomona was really the best choice for you. Perhaps Swarthmore would have been the best choice for my dad. My point is that USN&WR is one of the contributing factors to why I had those among my choices and those in your generation did not. I will go as far as to say that there isn’t a single domestic, non-legacy student at Swarthmore who didn’t at some point look at the USN&WR rankings when he was making his decision of where to attend college, nor has there been for the past ~20 years.</p>
<p>
Indeed. This is another component of what I was talking about when I said it has irrevocably altered higher education in America. I also agree that it’s irresponsible journalism on their part to rank Reed where they have. I think they should list schools that have refused to send in information in a group, not give them a rank, and leave it at that. To those in the know, Reed is a top ten school. It’s baccalaureate origin of Ph.D.s even exceeds that of Swarthmore.</p>
<p>
Yes, probably so, but none of them have left the mark on higher education that USN&WR has.</p>
<p>“Why won’t other colleges get on board?”</p>
<p>Some are. </p>
<p>“… the majority of the Annapolis Group presidents attending the annual meeting in Annapolis, Md., expressed their intent not to participate in the annual US News and World Report ranking exercise.” [ANNAPOLIS</a> GROUP STATEMENT ON RANKINGS AND RATINGS - Annapolis Group](<a href=“http://www.collegenews.org/x7131.xml]ANNAPOLIS”>http://www.collegenews.org/x7131.xml)</p>
<p>There are 130 schools in the Annapolis Group: [The</a> Annapolis Group -](<a href=“http://www.collegenews.org/annapolisgroup_schools.xml]The”>http://www.collegenews.org/annapolisgroup_schools.xml)</p>
<p>
That was from 2007. I presume Swarthmore is still sending in information. I guess we know that at least 66 of the 130 schools in the Annapolis Group are going to stop sending in information to USN&WR, but I wonder if any of those will be/were (former) top 25 schools.</p>
<p>“I presume Swarthmore is still sending in information.”</p>
<p>Why do you presume? (I have no idea if they do. I suppose one could ask!)</p>
<p>Does the current colleges issue of USNWR show any loss of participation?</p>
<p>AE, you are the ■■■■■. You make no sense and contradict yourself. You sound as if you are very bitter. Perhaps you were rejected from Swarthmore?</p>