<p>@IxnayBob I don’t know what you mean. I think all of the elite college (and or Ivy) bashing here is ridiculous. Why do so many people go out of their way to attack a strong education or ambitious kids?</p>
<p>@maize2018, My “main site” is Bogleheads dot org. I am not opposed to most of the BH philosophy, and we do live below our means, but there is a contingent over there that jumps out of the bushes to criticize anyone who has decided to actually spend a few of the dollars they’ve save up. </p>
<p>They look at ROI charts for the different schools and know the price of everything but the value of nothing.</p>
<p>As comedians say: same jokes, different crowd. </p>
<p>Btw, for all that, I highly recommend the BH site. </p>
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<p>I think it’s less about jealousy, or “envy”, and more about frustration regarding how non-Ivy colleges are perceived by others. It’s this ‘Ivy-or-bust’ mentality that frustrates a lot of people, especially those who graduated from non-Ivy schools and happened to do well for themselves and are happy!</p>
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<p>Not everyone desires to be a silicon valley elite, wall street trader, consultant, or finance guru. In fact I would argue that those are terrible careers from a quality of life perspective. </p>
<p>what frustration and which others are you worried about?</p>
<p>This is a straw-person’s argument. Who is claiming that you can’t do well for yourself and be happy graduating from a non-Ivy school?</p>
<p>“I think it’s less about jealousy, or “envy”, and more about frustration regarding how non-Ivy colleges are perceived by others. It’s this ‘Ivy-or-bust’ mentality that frustrates a lot of people, especially those who graduated from non-Ivy schools and happened to do well for themselves and are happy!”</p>
<p>You don’t <strong>have</strong> to worry about how the college you go to (the car you drive, the vacation you take, the house you buy, etc.) is perceived by others. Anyone with any common sense whatsoever knows that where you go to school isn’t the sole determiner of your life trajectory either personally or professionally - and if someone is stupid enough to think otherwise, what do I care what their opinion is, and why would I “fret” that I allegedly don’t measure up in the eyes of people who hold stupid opinions?</p>
<p>Anyway, for the gazillionth time, angst over “non-Ivy colleges” is not a national phenomenon - it’s a regional one. I didn’t think like a midwesterner when it came time to send my Midwest-born-and-raised kids to college; there’s no reason you need to think like a northeasterner when it comes to angsting over a select set of colleges. </p>
<p>"True, youngsters who possess both extreme intelligence and a mulish work ethic are fairly rare. But not that rare: "</p>
<p>Intelligence and a strong work ethic are such awful traits. Society really shouldn’t reward them at all. /sarcasm</p>
<p>There is just too much Ivy-envy, anger and maliciousness in here. Kids that work hard and make it into the pinnacle of our education system should be admired instead of this stupid mentality that glorifies mediocrity in our society today.</p>
<p>I’m not saying that kids who get into the Ivies are the only kids worthy of accolades but they certainly don’t deserve this foul treatment. To say that their pursuit of academic excellence is the cause of their future depression is a silly hypothesis. I guess the answer is to stop ranking schools, scrap the admissions process, eliminate GPAs, class ranks and letter grades. Oh yeah, and everyone gets a participation trophy.</p>
<p>Then, everyone will be happy and equal…equally ignorant!!!</p>
<p>I don’t bash millionaires and billionaires, I don’t bash actors and athletes for being paid what they are paid and I don’t bash kids who do everything our educational system wants them to do to the best of their abilities and fault them when their success gets them admitted to our countries most prestigious institutions of higher learning.</p>
<p>I do bash people who live everyday off the government with no desire to get off, I do bash people who fail once or twice then completely give up trying, I bash people who refuse help to get off drugs and alcohol when they clearly need it, I bash those who hate competition and those who never leave their comfort zones of mediocrity, I can’t stand people who ask for hand outs instead of a job and I bash those who cowardly refuse to fight for more when it’s within their power to get more in life. I bash losers not winners. </p>
<p>So, I assume turnabout is fair play.</p>
<p>"bash those who hate competition and those who never leave their comfort zones of mediocrity, "</p>
<p>Uh oh. I hate competition. Seriously. I’ll push myself intensely academically but it’s not because I’m competing with others. </p>
<p>You can compete with yourself in the sense that you pursue self-improvement or personal challenge.</p>
<p>“To say that their pursuit of academic excellence is the cause of their future depression is a silly hypothesis.”</p>
<p>Parental pressure can certainly exacerbate depressive tendencies, but it’s HARDLY as though “pressure child to get straight A’s / attend elite school” is the only flavor of parental pressure out there. </p>
<p>Extreme parental pressure is not limited to getting good grades and into certain schools. Dating, going into the family business, even not going to college are things I’ve seen parents pressure their kids on as well as the pursuit of football, basketball, dance, piano and other stuff. And all these folks are not in the ivies.</p>
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<p>It’s certainly safe to do so, since they are powerless to fight back.</p>
<p>“Kids report cramming so hard that they’re only getting two hours of sleep a night”</p>
<p>This is true, but it happens at every college in the country. Usually with two hours of sleep less than that.</p>
<p>“William Deresiewicz, who taught at Yale for 10 years until 2008, thinks these students are, in a moral and spiritual sense, lost.”</p>
<p>I am not sure what he is trying to say. What does lost in a moral sense mean? I have been told by conservative christians that my support for gay rights is immoral. Is that what he means? </p>
<p>What does lost in a spiritual sense mean? They don’t go to church enough? Islamic morals and spirituality, Christian?, Jewish?, Buddist? </p>
<p>I think his words are full of sound and fury, but signify nothing.</p>
<p>“Kids report cramming so hard that they’re only getting two hours of sleep a night”</p>
<p>This is true, but it happens at every college in the country."</p>
<p>Bingo. At the 10,000 foot level, students at elite colleges are just like everyone else out there. They have good days and bad days. They stress over girlfriends / boyfriends and that darn pimple on their face. They stress over tests and getting internships and whether they’ll be employed. They stress over money - their loans, or what it’s costing their parents. There is nothing radically different about elite colleges.</p>
<p>Anyway, if Deresiewicz was so fed-up, nothing prevented him from trying to get a professorship with the obviously-much-better young students at East Whoville State. But who are we kidding? He loved the prestige.</p>
<p>.A society that yields more and more power to the top 1%, .1%, .01% - of course kids are going to mirror that society. If we valued teachers, musicians, artists, poets and philosophers more perhaps there would be more of the Ivy dreamers taking these roads less traveled. </p>
<p>Youi’re going to get more musicians, artists, poets and philosophers out of Ivies / elite schools than you will out of colleges at “lower” levels, where students are often viewing college as just merely a training ground to teach them to do XYZ specific job. </p>
<p>@Pizzagirl What evidence do you have that there are more of these artsy introspective types from Ivies+ than other schools? And hasn’t much of this thread been devoted to touting the ivies as incubators for future Wall Street and VC titans and mini-titans? </p>
<p>There are artists that get paid $20,000,000 per movie. Musicians that sell tickets for $2,500 a seat. Artists and entertainers are invited to perform at the White House and get honorary doctorate degrees from universities across the country. And paintings that sell for thousands of dollars while the artists are still alive. And writers who make millions, whose books are made into movies, then toys, then costumes and then theme parks. And one of the biggest guys in Hollywood is an illustrator and story teller named Stan Lee whose Marvel Entertainment is raking in billions of dollars and shall we never forget that dreamer of dreamers, Walt Disney who created a world that lives on based on his animations and visionary talent.</p>
<p>I can’t think of a society that has valued artists more than this one nor can I think of time in all of human history when artists were valued more than they are today and recognized for their contributions.</p>
<p>But I guess its a common wisdom to ignore all the evidence and just say that artists aren’t getting what they deserve.</p>
<p>Although I could name artists in sculpture, photography, dance and more that are highly recognized and compensated for what they do. The fact that so many people claim to be artists and failed shouldn’t detract from the immense success in, however you view it, that artists are achieving today.</p>
<p>@Madaboutx The 20MM movie star is an argument regarding a healthful state of the arts? The rock star? The comic book mogul? </p>