<p>"Now, my question is, when today's 100% need student from St. Paul's, Exeter, Miss Porter's, etc. shows up at Harvard, can THEY get into the final clubs and the uppermost stratum? Is it the money, the full-bore pedigree, or can the "partial" pedigree of the preppy private school now get them there?"</p>
<p>I am sure that I'm not understanding something here: But why would they want to get into a final club? Just what would they have in common with people there, and why would final club members want to be with a person who had little in common with them, but wanted to use them for connections?</p>
<p>My viewpoint is that of someone who went there and knew the clubs existed, but never had any desire to belong. I didn't feel envious or excluded -- simply never crossed my mind to have any desire to belong to such a thing. The fact that I would never be invited to join a final club was no more upsetting to me than the fact that I would never be on the tennis, equestrian or field hockey team. </p>
<p>I had no desire to do any of those things. Meanwhile, there were plenty of other interesting things that I could do on campus with people who shared my interests.</p>
<p>Northstarmom, everything you say is true, but the final clubs exist and they only exist for those at the top. Whether a person is unaware of the existence or doesn't care, this doesn't change the fact that the clubs are exclusionary.</p>
<p>I'm at princeton now, and I really don't see any difference between classes. For the first part of freshman year, sure, the very rich mostly hung out with themselves. But that wasnt because of anything having to do with money-- they just had been friends in highschool at exeter, andover, eton, etc. The poorer students also mostly hung out with each other, mainly because they felt more comfortable. But really the rich are no different, and are perfectly happy to hang out or become friends with people with less money, but as some people have said, that money can be intimidating. But like this summer I was invited to a friends house in turkey (a converted monestary beach house) and also to a friends house in san diego (small apartment in a lower middle class area) </p>
<p>People with a lot of money don't tend to flaunt it-- sure they can dress more expensively than I can afford to, but they don't look down upon you if you cant. Also, at college there arent many occasions to flaunt your money, as most things are inexpensive. Finally, at a ivy league school, so much travel can be paid for by student groups and the university that the ultra wealthy going to the caribbean for winter break is no different than the a cappella group going to the bahamas (for free) People from all walks of life can get into any of the eating clubs, even those thought to be elite. It just may be easier if you have a lot of money to get into ivy, for example. But really, theres hardly anything stopping the mingling of classes except for the confidence level of those who arent super elite</p>
<p>Atomom, IMHO, if kids go to school with your attitude, they will not interact with other classes. I could not disagree more with what you say. Having been there, intelligence is the great equalizer. Those scorned are (and were in my day) more likely to be rich and not there on their own merit rather than poor or middle class.</p>
<p>Class in America today is education based. The Economist has done some interesting stories on this. People kill to get into top schools because a degree from one says way more about who you are than who your father is. Not true in many countries, but increasingly true here.</p>
<p>This Country of course has many who have inherited great wealth. It is increasingly difficult for them to get into top schools and to get top jobs. In my business, law, we make no bones about not even considering partner's children who can't get in the door on merit. This is mostly true in every business.</p>
<p>The connections that will do you any good at an ivy today will be those of the best and the brightest, not the richest.</p>
<p>NSM - I see your point. I have no idea whether the "outsider" (we'll call them) would want to be in a Final Club or not. My question relates to dstark's original interest. Do the classes inter-mix? So... taking it to the limiting case (the Final Club), must one be old money/pedigree to become a member, or is there something a person from a different class-of-origin can attain to join this group in a particular social venue?</p>
<p>Kirmum, obviously clubs based on race are exclusive. However, if belonging to a club brings you power, prestige or potential money that is a very different thing. If I belong to the "Gardeners" club, most people won't care. If I belong to the "Investment Bankers" club or the "Sons of the Investment Banker" club, that 's a whole different ball of wax.</p>
<p>The only person whom I personally know who was in a final club was not old money. He is African American and probably from parents who were professionals and upper middle class, however his parents weren't famous, and from what I can tell about him, neither were they extremely wealthy.</p>
<p>He's a personable guy who is able to fit in with all kinds of people.</p>
<p>You lost me here Dstark. Who confers power or upon a finals club member. It's all perception. Power and come from being smart and hard working. You can join any club you like at Harvard, it's not going to help you for long in the real world.</p>
<p>Hey Kirmum, I'm not a writer. :) I'm no longer talking about finals club members. You know more about finals club members than I do. I didn't go to Harvard. I'm talking about clubs in general. I'm tired. I'll try to think of a better way to get my point across.</p>
<p>You are saying that there are no clubs at Harvard for the upper class. Zero?</p>
<p>Jack and Jill is pretty exclusive. My friend had to be invited into it by a family friend already in it, and then they screened her family, lol. From what I gather it's a club that was erected years ago when African Americans couldn't get access to country clubs, etc, and so created their own way to network. They do a lot of community service stuff though, so it's not like it's rich kids sitting and talking. It's rich kids cleaning and talking! Jk.</p>
<p>For me, the biggest eye-opening relationships in college, the ones that opened up a world of life possibilities-- those relationships were not economic status revelations; ie Oh Goody! I'm Friends with Someone Who Is Richer Than God! </p>
<p>For me, the life-changing relationships were the relationships with kids from other countries and Third Culture kids who lived and travelled in ways I had only read about--regardless of income. My life is completely different for having met those kids.</p>
<p>Professionally, I still maintain that upper economic connections are very valuable--for establishing globe-trotting architecture practices at least.</p>
<p>Cheers, there is no doubt that relationships formed at schools filled with high achievers will be beneficial for a lifetime.</p>
<p>Dstark, as you began the discussion, let's look at why you did. It seems that you have doubts that the wealthy will socialize with "lower classes." If you communicate this to your kids, they are unlikely to socialize with the wealthy at college. I've been there. What, my friend, makes you so suspicious of the wealthy as a whole? Values, hearts, intentions and many other character impacting things, IMO, are truly not wealth related. Maybe you live in a community with a lot of new money material values as I do here in sunny CA? This is not at all the whole world.</p>
<p>It has been my experience that EVERYONE will socialize with fun, witty, & outgoing people regardless of their background.</p>
<p>The off-putting thing for me at an Ivy, upon arrival, was the interconnectedness of the "Manhattan/prep school/"my cousin summers next door to your grandmother in Amagansett" thing. </p>
<p>On the west coast, no matter your wealth, you do not have a clue whose grandfather founded what business. The north easterners all seemed to know this stuff. Seriously I did not know "Cohen" was a Jewish name till I got to college.</p>
<p>So there was a bit of a club based on inside information... it took a while to learn all the buzz words.</p>
<p>Sorry SBmom. That was not the experience of my DH at USC in the 70's. His frat brothers were the very wealthy, very well known scions of California's elite. </p>
<p>As USC (and Stanford?) still adhere to accepting +50% from California, I assume the tradition of educating the California elite continues. Imagine if Yale accepted 50% from Conneticut--though I am sure they could fill a class.</p>
<p>Cheers, the population in Calif is a lot different than the population in Conn in so many ways. You know this. USC did not have the rich kids hanging out with the rich kids?</p>
<p>Kirmum, I started this thread because I do have my doubts that the social classes mix. If they don't mix, then are connections really made? Many people here have different opinions. I'm fine with that. I enjoy reading about other people's experiences.
I'm not telling my kids anything about this upper class stuff. They are growing up very differently than I did. I'm not suspicious of the upper class. People are people.</p>
<p>I mentioned the video "Social Class in America" at the beginning of this thread. One of my favorite scenes is the interview with a 30-year old WASP. He said, talking about WASPs, "We're smarter, better educated,better looking, better behaved, more cultured, and richer than everybody else. We have our own hangouts." Then the video cuts away and comes back to him in a few minutes. He is asked about the nouveau riche. He said, "Now I go to parties and I see short, fat, ugly people of all different colors. WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? WHAT ARE THEY DOING HERE?" I love those last two lines.</p>
<p>well cheers at least <em>I</em> did not have a clue. </p>
<p>Perhaps some Californians from certain circles did think this way, and if anywhere USC does not surprise me. I mean, the Bohemian Grove types do exist in California.</p>
<p>What I meant is that it was not part of my Calif public school mentality, and it was very much a part of the prep school new england mentality, and it was one way an upper middle class kid who traveled, played tennis and skied would be 'out of it'.</p>
<p>What role does race play? I remember back 35 years ago (I remember having the THOUGHT 35 years ago) that when folks ordered out for pizza (which they did virtually every night), no one from the upper middle class or upper class strata at my alma mater ever thought to ask me whether I could actually afford it. I think I simply came across as the weird New Yorker who didn't like pizza much. (Of course, I would have been too ashamed to say. Yet, they all knew that I worked two jobs, and they saw me doing it, at both college bookstores.) The assumption seemed to be that because I was white, it wasn't an issue. I think, but I am not sure to be honest, that the question would have definitely crossed their minds if I wasn't white - but mind you in those days there really weren't enough non-white students on campus to tell. Nowadays, the skin-tones on campus are far more diverse than they used to be, but I'm pretty sure looking at the data that the college is less economically diverse than it was then. If 73% of white students receive no needbased aid (hence family incomes of $150k and above), and (abstracting from the Harvard data) 70% of those receiving aid are in the top quintile (family incomes of $85k and above), it would mean that only 8% of white students come from families with incomes below $85k. (the mean family income in the U.S. is now roughly $52k.) The number of students "like me" would hence be a tiny fraction, certainly not enough for anyone to notice. I would be close to invisible.</p>
<p>And yet, we weren't particular poor, but I was certainly (and mostly unintentionally, I hope) made to feel that way.</p>
<p>No sour grapes, though. The college gave me what I needed to go out and grab what was necessary to make for a heckuva life, and I am grateful! (I wish I could establish a pizza fund with my measly alumni contribution.)</p>