Do kids really make connections at schools? Do the social classes really socialize

Parents Forum
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<p>My California-born & raised son went to an east coast LAC. Before he got to his college, he had NEVER heard the the term "Jewish American Princess" (or the corresponding abbreviation). We're Jewish - so I thought it was pretty funny when my 18 year old was so suprised by the term - he actually asked me what it meant. Then started sending me an email of other common,racial derogatory terms he was learning for the first time on the East coast. This is from an urban kid who attended the most racially/ethnically diverse high school in our district. </p>

<p>My son definitely did not make close friends among wealthy kids at his college. Part of it was simple finances -- he turned down social invitations frequently because the planned activities were too expensive, or because he had to work many evenings. But part of it was a feeling of disconnect between their lives & intersts and his own -- and I honestly don't know whether it was a money/class thing or an East Coast thing.</p>

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<p>Well, the USC fraternities MAY have been one way of sorting the classes. Many of the frat brothers were from wealthy, established Californian families. OTOH, my DH, son of Horatio Alger, went to university while his family was still traversing the layers of middle class on their way to upper middle class--and he made close friends among the rich elite before he was technically 'one of them'. </p>

<p>btw, Besides a myriad of friends in California, I have two siblings living in Northern California and two cousins living in southern California. I used to have a number of clients in the New Canaan/Greenwich corridor. I don't think California and Conneticut suburbs ARE that different.</p>

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<p>The Italian riviera and the French riviera aren't that different either, except for the different languages ;)</p>

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<p>SBmom, I can sympathize with your experience all those years ago. I found out only when I got to UF and read about it in an American History text that people of different religions weren't supposed to like each other! And it wasn't because I didn't know people of other faiths. It was just that I had lived in a blessedly free state until then--I don't know why. I remember thinking how outrageously stupid it was--how out-of-date. (Unfortunately, I knew all about racism already--who didn't? the wonderful thing was when my then-ten-year-old son first read Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry and came home to ask me what the "N word" meant. I was happy he didn't know yet even though we have AfAm members of the family.)</p>

<p>Another thought in response to a phrase from the previous page of posts--"the top" people. Using such a phrase to identify people by income when you're talking about a university population seems just silly to me. Perhaps it does have to do with self-confidence, and if so, then thank God my son has it--but he goes next month to take up residence with many who will be far wealthier than we, and it is a complete non-issue for him. "Top" can mean many things in such a context, but money probably isn't terribly relevant to what's real there.</p>

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<p>Mini,</p>

<p>I came from a family with much in the way of riches, but very little money. We were a blended family, with six kids ranging in age from 19 to 11 when I first went to college. My parent are well educated and valued education, so we have all gotten plenty of that, but there was very little for anything extra. I attended a college where the majority of students were very well off. I had only the bit of work-study I could earn, plus what I made in the summer. I remember well feeling like you did. I was definitely friends with the other kids, rich or less rich. It really hit home with me what a difference there was when one friend asked me to go with a group 90 miles to get a "precision haircut" that was going to cost her more than I would be able to make in my month's work-study. She did this about once a month. I hadn't thought about this for years. I am sure they didn't mind that I didn't go, but it was the first time I realized a real difference.</p>

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<p>One of my best friends dates back from my college days. She came from a well off family, and I did not. </p>

<p>Frankly, it continues to crack me up how little she realizes about how different her lifestyle is from mine. An example: Once when I went to Europe, I mentioned to my friend how much I dreaded the flight because of how crammed I knew I'd be in the airline seats. </p>

<p>She naively asked why I didn't simply fly business class. To my surprise, she never flies coach. It was a surprise to her that for me, simply going to Europe is a big deal -- and I can not dream of being able to spring for business class seats.</p>

<p>Her idea of a treat for herself was to order a $20,000 handmade watch from Switzerland. She truly doesn't understand that when I buy myself a watch, I get the $20 Timex ones and am very satisfied with them, and indeed declined her offer to get me the kind of watch that she thinks is suitable.</p>

<p>She's not a snob - just doesn't know any better. Our friendship isn't based on material things. We have a lot in common. I just think that her way of viewing the world is funny. </p>

<p>We met in college and have been close friends for more than 30 years. For both of us, the friendship has broadened our perspectives about how others live.</p>

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<p>Anyway, to go back to DStark's question, at least as regards my racial/ethnic class and 'mixing' - at my alma mater, today, I virtually wouldn't exist - there are now fewer white students below the median family income than there are Hispanic students (and there aren't that many of those.) You can't have much in the way of mixing if the element to mix is so scarce.</p>

<p>The point is that even among the "prestige" colleges, and independent of the fraternities, final clubs, etc., the actual potential mix of students varies quite widely college to college - indeed, that is what my postings about the "entitlement indices" and Pell Grant recipients are all about.</p>

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<p>frankly NSM she doesn't necessarily sound like a snob but doesn't she read the newspaper? She sounds pretty egocentric to think that it is neccesary to buy a watch that costs more than what someone making minimum wage would make in a year.
We have long time aquaintances who don't need to work period- they fly off to meetings to vote their shares of the family business, and they are very involved in the communities in which they live ( which would include their three homes- one in Europe one not far away from we where live and one on the lake)
Their kids even went to public school for a time, and they work hard to teach their kids that wealth does not make you a good person but it does give you certain obligations to your self and the community.
I imagine that most of the kids friends at college- didn't realize how wealthy they were because of the values that they have been raised with.
Quite different than somone who needs to remind.</p>

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<p>Doesn't anybody here have Real Player? </p>

<p><a href="http://www.pbs.org/peoplelikeus/film/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.pbs.org/peoplelikeus/film/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Hasn't anybody clicked on How to Marry Rich? Belle, Belle, Belle? WASP Lessons? Bourgeous Blues? Paul Fussell?</p>

<p>Just click on a circle.</p>

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<p>BTW the novel "Prep" gets into some of these social/economic class issues</p>

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<p>is that a good book SBmom?</p>

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<p>I'd be very interested to know more about class mixing at the state u.s. At so many of the top colleges, at least as regards whites, there really can't be that much in the way of mixing below the middle class because the students simply aren't there. If the percentage of Pell Grant recipients (roughly $40k and below at H (6.8%), Y (9.9%), P (7.3%), W (9.8%), and S (12.6%), are so low to begin with, the percentage of white students below the median household income are likely miniscule, and would be a virtually invisible campus presence - there are no clubs, gospel groups, dance troupes, a capella groups, frats, sororieties, etc. for poorer (and again, they might not even be that poor) white guys and gals. </p>

<p>My d's school, percentagewise, is substantially different, as would be MIT or Caltech or USC, and I wonder in what ways the dynamics play out differently. I honestly don't know.</p>

<p>There is a wonderful Evelyn Waugh novel "Decline and Fall" that took place at my college at Oxford. There is something called the Kingsley Club, where the students who are to inherit a million pounds at the age of 21 get together once a year, have a fancy dress dinner in the College Hall, and then wreak havoc on the college all night. The only rule is that their cheques for three times the damage have to be in the hands of the college bursar by the next morning. (It is a fundraiser, and, by the way, 30 years ago a club like this actually existed - the year before I was there, they set fire to the library roof!) Anyhow, during the evening they come upon a studious grammar school graduate, and steal his trousers and throw him in the pond. The college authorities expel him for indecency, and hence begins his "decline and fall". A fabulous, fabulous book!</p>

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<p>Yes, fabulous--only "Vile Bodies" comes close.</p>

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<p>"Prep" can't compete with Waugh-- but it explored the outsider, lower SES kid's experience at a snooty prep school, and it was a good "beach book."</p>

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<p>I go back to the question I asked Kirmum yesterday (thanks for your answer Kirmum!): </p>

<p>Obviously, a school's "diversity numbers" (Pell grant recipients, financial aid recipients, percentage of minority students) don't tell whether various groups mix, interact and get along with each other.</p>

<p>So, If a student is looking for a college/university where there is interaction and mixing between income classes, races, etc. what should they look for?</p>

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<p>Hippie colleges--Grinnell, Oberlin, Reed and the like.</p>

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<p>"Obviously, a school's "diversity numbers" (Pell grant recipients, financial aid recipients, percentage of minority students) don't tell whether various groups mix, interact and get along with each other.</p>

<p>So, If a student is looking for a college/university where there is interaction and mixing between income classes, races, etc. what should they look for?"</p>

<p>So the obverse of what I said for a start - first you'd have to ascertain that such classes and races even exist, and such numbers as to not be invisible. (The data suggests this may not be the case at many "top" institutions.) Then you'd probably want to check the degree of self-segregation, whether in "prestige clubs' (eating or otherwise), frats and sororities, and their impact on campus life (even relatively small percentages - 20-30% - could have major impacts if it segregates all or much of a single poplation.) Also check to see whether "theme" housing has the same effect. Also, check for the segregation of first-year students - while that may have the positive impact of "all first-years of whatever race, class, etc. living together", it could be more than negated if much of the first-year experience is taken up with frat rushing or, alternatively, with groups of same class/race students self-segregating in second or future years.</p>

<p>I'd also check for car policies - on some campuses, cars can divide students into haves or have-nots - it can be overcome of course, but it can be an immediate sign of distinctions among students.</p>

<p>After you've done all of this, you just get to look around. ;)</p>

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<p>I can say that at the school that both Mini's D and my D attend, mixing does certainly happen. </p>

<p>My D was going through some of her end-of-year school pictures and told me the story of one friend of hers who had just graduated. This girl, it seems, was the daughter of a man who had immigrated to this country from Mexico. The family lived in one of the big Western states - Texas or CA. The father worked as either an elevator operator or a custodian, I believe at a hotel. (Sorry, my details are not precise but you get the idea.) The mother was deceased. My D's friend was the eldest of several children.</p>

<p>This friend's dad visited the college for the first time ever for his D's commencement week. My D had the pleasure of meeting him, and she said he was just bursting with pride at his D's accomplishments. She was, of course, the first in the family to attend college. This occasion was the first time the father had ever flown on a plane or been to the East coast. My D and I practically got teary eyed reflecting on the joy of this man and his family. I was delighted to know that this girl had received the financial aid that enabled her to have this superb education. (It will make writing my tuition check easier.) I was just as delighted that this girl was a good friend of my D's. </p>

<p>We are a full-pay family but don't consider ourselves "rich" - more modest livers/long-term savers. But I guess we are clearly upper-middle class anyhow. My D's only spending money at school is what she earns over the summer. (This coming year will be tough, as the expenses of her living away from home in D.C. far exceed the stipend she gets for her summer internship.) She does tell me of students with generous monthly allowances and groups going to restaurants in town. (My D is free to do that -- and does! -- but it is on her nickel to do so.)</p>

<p>Anyhow, from this story and others, I know that my D has friends of various economic backgrounds, and I doubt that it is much of a factor, if any, in the selection of friends -- in her circle, at least. The housing system is one of many factors that support this mixing.</p>

<p>Some schools really go the extra mile to mitigate differences in economic background. My understanding is that Swarthmore has a policy of having all on-campus events totally free to all students. That is great as even a $5 or $10 ticket can be a burden to some, and I know my D has paid that or more for student tickets for various events at the Five Colleges.</p>

<p>P.S. My D's pre-first-year summer reading book was "Nickel & Dimed," about a writer who took six months to live the experience of trying to get by on minimum-wage jobs. The author visited with the students during their orientation. My D says that some students objected to the book as they felt the author had "played at" the lives that their families LIVED -- for much longer than six months! This led to interesting discussions that would not have happened at a school where almost everyone was middle-class and above. Education is much more than what happens in the classroom.</p>

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<p>"frankly NSM she doesn't necessarily sound like a snob but doesn't she read the newspaper? She sounds pretty egocentric to think that it is neccesary to buy a watch that costs more than what someone making minimum wage would make in a year."</p>

<p>Actually, although she's a bright person, she doesn't read the newspaper much. She's a surgeon who's childless, not married and a workaholic. She has a very skewed idea of how the world works. She also was spoiled growing up in that her banker father doted on her, and would take her to the toy store and literally buy her anything she wanted.</p>

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<p>we read that book as well for book group and that was some members thoughts on it as well- but I thought that was fairly ironic considering the book group was of the same social class as the writer- and if she hadn't written the book we wouldn't even be TALKING about those issues.
We had some very interesting discussions because they mostly had the same persepective- while they might have had lower paying jobs in college- they went to college whereas the women profiled did not- and in their families there wasn't any question that they were going to college- wheras in my family my brother is the only one out of siblings that has attended a 4 yr college and he had to join the military to pay for it.</p>