<p>Wildflower,
I did not work in investment banking before law school (thank goodness!), though I have worked very closely with investment bankers for more years than I care to count now. For a few years after college and before law school (and, at times, I consulted during law school), I worked for a very well-known figure in the business world on a variety of different projects.<br>
Sally</p>
<p>Sally, even though you do not have experience as an ibanker can you still tell me what you know about the differences between getting a JD and becoming a Corporate lawyer and getting an MBA and becoming a IBanker?</p>
<p>Thanks</p>
<p>I have both a JD and an MBA. Here is the Reader's Digest version of the differences between investment banking and corporate law:</p>
<p>Getting the job:
Both are incredibly competitive, but if you are at a top school, you will definitely have a fair shot at it. Coming out of an MBA program, your work experience prior to business school and your internship(s) during business school will matter a lot to the potential investment bank that is thinking of hiring you. In other words, if you've never worked in investment banking before and you've decided to take an investment banking job just because it sounds cool to you, or for whatever reason, you will have a tough time making your case to your interviewers. If your work experience is in a completely different area, make sure that you get an internship at an investment bank. If you are at lower tiered school and trying to get in either field, you may have a really tough time. I think that there are probably more opportunities for graduates of well-regarded regional law schools to get jobs in corporate law. That said, though, I still believe that the truly complex and innovative corporate dealmaking is done by attorneys in big cities - NYC, Chicago, SF and LA most of the time. </p>
<p>Salary/Hours:
In either job, you had better really like what you are doing because you are going to be doing a hell of a lot of it. I would say that on average, an associate investment banker right out of business school will work 10+ hours a week more than their corporate law counterparts. There are certainly times when the reverse will be true, but on average, this will be true (and by the way, this applies to recently minted MBAs who go to work at private equity funds or hedge funds, too). The base salary for an investment banker will be lower than that of the new corporate lawyer, but most often the bonus of the investment banker will blow the corporate lawyer's out of the water. This difference in total comp increases every year in favor of the investment banker (though with this year's salary increases, attorneys at big firms are making very nice money too). </p>
<p>Environment:
Both junior associate attorneys and bankers do a lot of grunt work. You will be doing due diligence on deals and proposed IPOs, for example, and then digesting all of the various documents and financial information received into due diligence into handy little reports that your bosses will read. You will each do some drafting -- attorneys will draft a section of an agreement or a research memo on some unsettled area of the law and bankers will draft pitch books, offering memoranda and portions of prospectuses. Junior attorneys will spend hours doing research on laws of different places or on case law developments in a certain area of law applicable to the deal they are working on. Junior bankers will spend a lot of time doing research on the industries of the companies they are working with. Remember, though, that a first year associate attorney is the very lowest man or woman on the totem pole of law firm life. The career paralegals know a lot more than they do. While an associate in investment banking may not know too much, they have the pre-business school analysts below them to help with some of the details.</p>
<p>Opportunity for Advancement:
Today, law firms don't hesitate to tell associates that they may want to find "other employment" within some time frame (often three months) at their annual review. However, if an attorney is performing well, you are pretty much guaranteed at least eight years of work before the big partnership decision occurs (today, it is often nine or ten years before this decision happens). What everyone used to call "up or out" is a bit gentler today, as a handful of associates who don't make partner will be offered some kind of counsel or other role instead of getting kicked to the curb after not making partner. Many associates who do not make partner will leave to try to find another law firm willing to take them on as a partner (though you had better have a nice juicy roster of clients - a "book of business" - for this to happen, in most cases). The first cut stage for investment bankers happens much sooner. Only a percentage (varies by year and by investment bank) of the associates at that investment bank will make VP 3-5 years after starting. If an investment banking associate doesn't make VP, that associate starts looking for a new job, perhaps at a different bank (unlikely) or in a different field.</p>
<p>Career Prospects: A corporate lawyer with several years of experience has a lot of options. That lawyer can continue to work for a law firm and try to make partner, try to go in house or go to work on the business side, either in investment banking, business development or private equity, among other areas. Plenty of corporate lawyers also decide that the hours and demands of corporate law are no longer something that they are willing to tolerate, and they choose different careers entirely. An investment banker with a few years of experience under his or her belt at a bulge bracket investment bank can either stick around and try to make VP (and the other cuts that follow that), leave to work for a boutique shop or another investment bank, or change industries and go to work for a hedge fund, for example. Both careers will lead to plenty of opportunites.</p>
<p>I think that's a fairly short, comprehensive summary. If there are any other areas you want insights on, let me know. I'll provide them to the extent I have experiences that lend themselves to an answer.</p>
<p>sallyawp - you have done prospective lawyers an enormous favor by outlining everything you have. </p>
<p>i worked in a "secondary" market and then in a small suburban practice -- neither were nearly as grueling as the NYC corportate practice you described (which is pretty much why i chose those practices :) ) -- but the demands and hours were still pretty intense -- clients and senior attorneys want the work done when they want the work done and they rarely care about what impact that may or may not have on your life (and i am not just talking about junior associates -- except perhaps for the most senior partner, every attorney had someone who could make such demands of them). I've known attorneys who were criticized for getting married at "inconvenient" times; i've known attorneys who were while called at the hospital while their wives were in labor (ok, i don't know any female attorneys called while they were in labor, don't know if that's just coincidence or if they were given more consideration. :) ). </p>
<p>being a successful attorney requires an enormous amount of commitment - and not just the type of commitment that may have gotten someone good grades in high school or college.</p>
<p>I realize that I made a typo last night. Here is the correction:</p>
<p>Could you be sent abroad to work for a U.S. corporation as a lawyer? Typically, no, unless you are licensed to practice law in that foreign COUNTRY. There can certainly be occasion for foreign travel if you are working for a multinational corporation, but that is about it, as far as I am aware. Most corporations have lawyers who live and work abroad, but they are almost without exception licensed to practice law in their respective home countries.</p>
<p>Seriously, Sally is the Oprah of CC -- and I will always be indebted to her!!!:D</p>
<p>thanks Sally a few more follow ups </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Are Lawyer job satisfaction rates reported? If so are they considerbly lower than other reported fields? (this was my original question).</p></li>
<li><p>When you say a percentage of Ibankers make it to VP, what would be a ballpark figure on what the percentage would be? </p></li>
<li><p>When you say Ibankers go in different fields do you mean Management consulting, hedge funds etc. </p></li>
<li><p>What other high paying jobs could people with JDs get? How about people with MBAs? </p></li>
<li><p>Since you have a Ivy league JD/MBA, I assume you're very smart. Alot of my friends are going into the medical field and looking at their salaries (300 000+) I have to admit it's attractive to me even though I will probably decide against it because I hate science. Why did you choose the legal career instead of say a medical one (in other words what are the advantages of a legal career)? </p></li>
<li><p>What are the typical JD/MBA careers after 20 years? My friends dad works for FOX and I think is the head of Advertising for 2 cities in Texas. He makes around 150 000-200 000 a year, doesn't work weekends and goes golfing alot. He has only a bachelors from Arizona State but as stated above is very sucessful. It seems a lot better to have his job than making 100 000 a year as an Ibanker working 100+ hours a week. I was wondering if it is because of the experience that he has such a good job.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I know its a lot of questions, but thanks alot sally if you could justly briefly touch on them. Thanks</p>
<p>Responses:
1. Are Lawyer job satisfaction rates reported? If so are they considerbly lower than other reported fields? (this was my original question). I don't know of any sources (reliable or not) where attorney satisfaction is is surveyed and measured, either as stand alone surveys or against other industries. I do know that the American Lawyer (magazine) conducts an annual survey with published results that is based upon written responses to questionaires sent to thousands of associates across the country. Many law firms encourage their associates to respond, so the results are considered to be accurate, but the survey does nothing to measure attorney satisfaction generally. The surveys may merely help you to compare life at one big law firm versus another big law firm. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>When you say a percentage of Ibankers make it to VP, what would be a ballpark figure on what the percentage would be? I think that it varies tremendously based upon the year (has the group done well, has the bank done well, has the banker him/her self done well?) and the investment bank. In my experience, it is certainly below 40-50%, but I can't say with any certainty.</p></li>
<li><p>When you say Ibankers go in different fields do you mean Management consulting, hedge funds etc. Sure, they may go to work at hedge funds or private equity funds (different skill set required, though), though from what I have seen, hedge funds and private equity funds tend to promote from within. Working for a some kind of management consulting firm, boutique or regional investment bank or heading into corporate America certainly happens a good deal. </p></li>
<li><p>What other high paying jobs could people with JDs get? How about people with MBAs? People with JDs do everything from writing novels and columns in magazines to management consulting to investment banking to private equity to working for the government to yes, practicing law. Other than the government route, there are high paying jobs in a wide variety of industries where former lawyers currently and will in the future work. You would be surprised how many top executives at large and small corporations have law degrees, whether or not they ever actually practiced. If you can prove that you're not one of those "no, no, no, you can't do that ..." lawyers, and are willing to find solutions to real business problems, you can make it anywhere you want to go. Former investment bankers, in my experience, tend to stay in finance-related fields. Of course, you can find high paying jobs or not, depending on what you are looking for, and, more importantly, what opportunities are available when you happen to be looking.</p></li>
<li><p>Since you have a Ivy league JD/MBA, I assume you're very smart. Alot of my friends are going into the medical field and looking at their salaries (300 000+) I have to admit it's attractive to me even though I will probably decide against it because I hate science. Why did you choose the legal career instead of say a medical one (in other words what are the advantages of a legal career)? I don't know how smart I am, but I never considered medicine as a career. I actually worked in a hospital emergency room years ago during college summers to make some money, and it was a bit too bloody and gory for me. Sure, doctors can make a lot of money. They also go to school for an obscenely long amount of time - 4 years of medical school plus residency plus fellowship plus whatever other specialization years they need to do. They often have extraordinary amounts of student loans waiting to be paid by then, they have worked at least as many hours as any junior corporate lawyer or investment banker for many years for little pay, and they certainly deserve their rewards. First of all, most doctors do not make $300k/year. I just called a friend who is a doctor, and she quoted to me from a survey published in one or another medical journal, that the average salary for an anesthiologist is indeed about $300k/year, but someone in family practice makes under $150k/year, a doctor who is an OB/GYN makes about $200k/year and a general surgeon makes about $240k/year. She agreed that those numbers were accurate in her experience (practicing in NYC metropolitan area). Remember, though, that malpractice rates are skyrocketing. Many women will tell you that just finding an OB/GYN in the NYC metropolitan area has become a challenge as doctors abandon their practices due to increasing malpractice costs (one report I read stated that the average OB/GYN in the NYC metropolitan area paid over $140k/year for malpractice insurance last year). I believe that anesthiologists have among the highest rates for medical malpractice insurance. In fact, the AMA reported that last year, one in six physicians faced a medical malpractice suit. I don't know that there is any easy answer to medicine versus law versus banking. I do know that you had better really like medicine to make it through med school and residency and the challenge of practicing.</p></li>
<li><p>What are the typical JD/MBA careers after 20 years? My friends dad works for FOX and I think is the head of Advertising for 2 cities in Texas. He makes around 150 000-200 000 a year, doesn't work weekends and goes golfing alot.
It is impossible to say why one person becomes successful while another does not. You try to give yourself all of the advantages available to you, but nothing is set in stone. Ultimately, you make your own success. There are plenty of people out there who don't have fancy degrees and who haven't done the whole investment banking/corporate law sacrifice thing, and that's what is so wonderful about living here in the U.S. You make your own success. Do I think that having degrees from good schools and work experience from top employers help? Absolutely, yes. Does it guarantee success? Absolutely not. Figure out what you want to do and go out there and make it happen. The degrees get your foot in the door (both at your first job out of school and often at any later job too), but you have to make the success happen.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Thanks Sally , You are the best!</p>
<p>"1. Are Lawyer job satisfaction rates reported?" </p>
<p>I believe that doctors for instance have the second highest rate of suicide of any profession -- after dentists. Lawyers (not all of course) seem to just like to complain thinking the world is their jury.</p>
<p>"You would be surprised how many top executives at large and small corporations have law degrees, whether or not they ever actually practiced." </p>
<p>Look at Pat Robertson -- Yale Law School. Didn't pass the NY bar, though, so now he predicts the weather and does public killing consulting:D.</p>
<p>"Remember, though, that malpractice rates are skyrocketing."</p>
<p>You could always be a neurosurgeon --NO ONE will insure you and thus you'll save that money, while still making an insane amount of money. Patients have to sign (several) waivers. I am sure some family members still sue, but presumably much less successful. Oh yeah, and you have to love medicine.</p>
<p>Sally</p>
<p>Is it better to do double major in Economics and Finance (with no electives/minor) or to Major in Finance (With a Minor and extra electives) with a higher GPA? </p>
<p>For:</p>
<p>Business School
Graduate School (economics)
Law School
Getting a job</p>
<p>I have not the foggiest idea whether it is better to double major in economics/finance, major and minor or whatever the rest of your question asked. Choose a major that you enjoy and try to learn something during your four years of college. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.</p>