<p>[OCI</a> callbacks thread](<a href=“OCI callbacks thread Forum - Top Law Schools”>OCI callbacks thread Forum - Top Law Schools)</p>
<p>here’s an OCI callback thread updated daily, in case anyone is interested.</p>
<p>bdm, fortunately for you, you attend a top law school that, in my opinion, is the least likely to be affected by the significant problems faced by many other law schools right now. I think that students at T14 (if not T8-10) law schools will continue to do fairly well even in these difficult economic times.</p>
<p>What I am seeing is that students are getting hired from the T14, but the best BIGLAW firms (I’m thinking of the top 10 Vault law firms, which, are, for the record, Wachtell Lipton, Cravath, Skadden, Sullivan & Cromwell, Davis Polk, Weil Gotshal, Simpson Thacher, Clearly Gottlieb, Covington & Burling, Kirkland & Ellis) are doing their best to skim the cream of the class, assuming/knowing that they simply won’t need to go much deeper this year. As always, generally, tippy top BIGLAW firms is willing to go deeper into the class at the top half ot he T14 than in the bottom half of the T14. BIGLAW firms outside of the top ten will dig deeper (as they always do) into the classes at the T14 law schools, with those law firms towards the top of the food chain less willing to make sacrifices in grades/law review, etc. </p>
<p>Many top law firms that traditionally interview at certain law schools outside of the T14 (though still Tier 2 or higher, including more “local” law schools) will continue to interview at those law schools, either for relationship purposes or other reasons (e.g. a powerful partner on the hiring committee from that law school). My experience so far has been that very few, if any, BIGLAW callbacks are being scheduled with students from these law schools, and the callback offers that are being given out are only to the very best students. </p>
<p>Please remember that it is only T14 law schools (and not even all of them) that can still get away with demanding that potential employers not be allowed to pre-screen resumes (though those employers may offer suggestions about who they would be willing to hire).</p>
<p>Many law firms (including many BIGLAW firms) have cancelled or scaled back their on campus interviews at many law schools outside of the T14. I suspect that many law firms that interview on campus at only one or two law schools (e.g. a smaller Chicago-area firm that only interviews on campus at Northwestern and Loyola) might continue to do so and to offer callbacks to students at these law schools. </p>
<p>Please keep in mind, however, that many law firms, including top BIGLAW firms, will be making fewer offers this year in order to keep summer class sizes down, particularly since these firms are assuming that yields will be higher than in years past. Of course, the net effect is that fewer students will get callback offers, and of those students who do, fewer will get actual offers.</p>
<p>The ultimate problem is that many BIGLAW firms have made/are making permanent job offers to less than a majority of their summer classes this year. This does not bode well for 2Ls interviewing for summer 2010 positions right now unless there is a 180 degree turnaround in the economy between now and the summer. If the economy continues to coast along (in my experience, BIGLAW law firms usually are slow to get hit by bad economies but then slower to recover), problems may be on the horizon. </p>
<p>For those law students looking for jobs at smaller firms and/or in smaller markets, one distinct problem is that now there are significantly more students at top law schools seeking these jobs. In other words, at a law firm in a smaller market traditionally staffed by students from a local law school, there might be more law students from the T14 or T30 now seeking these jobs, and those from the local law schools may find themselves shut out to some extent. </p>
<p>It is ugly out there right now, and I suspect it will get uglier for at least the next year or two before it begins to get better. I suspect that the recovery will begin (as it usually does) with lateral hiring of experienced attorneys instead of with attorneys who need training right out of law school. Those trying to enter law school next autumn (2010), who would be interviewing for summer associate jobs in autumn of 2011, will likely still be facing residual problems caused by, among other things, a huge glut in the number of unemployed and experienced lawyers, even if the economy does begin to pick up again by that time.</p>
<p>Thanks (I think- as this info is really dismal) as always for your insight Sally. </p>
<p>My d is still planning to forge ahead with her applications. If she sits this cycle out, she might have to do a re-do on the LSAT and that is about the last thing she wants to do over.<br>
I’m really just an interested observer to my kids application proccess- so I’m just real curious as to how this all pans out for her and what’s going to take priority in her decision process. As she really has no great interest in Big Law and could conceivably stay in the field of labor law and work for a union, it may make sense for her to take the $ from a T-30 school (if offered), get the JD and do law school on the cheap (if there is such a thing).<br>
but then again- an unexpected admission from a T-10 school could change that decision too.<br>
Ah- the next few months will be interesting in our household.<br>
Good luck to everyone and may you make the right decision.</p>
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<p>Pretty useless. The better OCI callback threads can be found on xoxo. Yes, it’s a cesspool, but there’s actually a treasure trove of information there.</p>
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<p>Any hope that, since callbacks will be fewer, the callback/offer ratio will be high? I’m thinking that firms don’t really want to waste time and/or money on calling back candidates about whom they’re not absolutely serious.</p>
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<p>Not necessarily – law firms typically give out callbacks based upon grades, law review and other quickly discernable factors (they meet with you on campus just to make sure you don’t have two heads/don’t seem to be the psycho killer type). I’m getting the sense that many law firms are going to be even more cautious about personality and fit this year – qualities that are typically determined during the callback interview.</p>
<p>My kid has bailed on the whole thing- at least for now. He just doesn’t like the prospects and the state of the legal profession/economy. No LSAT, no applications. I hope he finds a job!</p>
<p>MOWC- I think more kids may think twice about going to law school at this time. Debt of $150,000 with dismal job prospects doesn’t exactly inspire optimism about one’s future.</p>
<p>One thread on TLS showed someone bailing out at the end of 1L (yes it’s one story- but I think it may become more common as the year progresses). Kid just did not want to take on another year of debt ($40,000 or so) when he was seeing what the job prospects were like.<br>
Those that have the resources (parents can afford to foot the bill) for law school- or for those at only the top schools may continue to do ok. </p>
<p>Progress: looks like we’re heading back towards an elitist/class society once again.</p>
<p>I was always under the impression that your work performance and experience are worth more then the name on your degree.</p>
<p>If someones goes to a tier 3 school, graduates and excels in their field of law then they would be offered a job at a big law firm.</p>
<p>I don’t see why people put such a high value on school prestige. If you are great at what you do and what you practice then you will be paid what you’re worth by the big firms.</p>
<p>nick - when it comes to biglaw, the name of the school and the honors received outweigh experience in most cases. There are exceptions but I wouldn’t bank on being one. Your transcript can haunt you longer than you can imagine when it comes to hiring by law firms. A mediocre transcript from a top 10 school can hold you back in lateral hiring even if you land that biglaw job out of law school. Lateral hiring right now is in the toilet. I have clients telling us not to bother to send resumes of those not from a top law school and without a federal clerkship. Some of these are firms that could have never gotten way with that wish list in the past.</p>
<p>Thank you for the reply.</p>
<p>So is there money to be made coming out of a law school that is not T-14? I will probably be going to Brooklyn Law School and although money isn’t of great concern to me, it would be nice to crack 6 figures and make a decent salary for the work I put in. I want to work in law because it interests me, I haven’t looked up figures on salaries outside of the big firms though.</p>
<p>What would you say the average Lawyer that is not a part of one of those big firms makes? Thanks.</p>
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<p>Unfortunately, I have to agree with cartera45’s response. The sad truth is that the top law firms tend to draw into the associate ranks either only fresh graduates from the top law schools or from among the top clerkships, which themselves tend to draw from only the graduates from the top law schools. Those associates are then run through an up-or-out career track to partnership where those who don’t make it - which usually comprises the vast majority of associates - are simply replaced by batches of new graduates. Lateral hiring of experienced lawyers from lower-level law firms is rare. The upshot is that the process is a one-shot game: if you don’t get into a top law firm or clerkship right out of law school - which nowadays requires top grades from a top law school - you probably never will. Unfair perhaps, but that’s how the game is played. </p>
<p>If it makes you feel better - for misery does love company - this is precisely how the top consulting firms, investment banks, and other high-prestige employers also run their career tracks, where if you don’t obtain an offer right out of school - whether it be B-school or some other program - you probably never will. You can’t just take a regular corporate job for many years and then simply decide to jump to McKinsey no matter how well you’ve done your job. You probably won’t even get an interview, for they’d rather hire candidates right out of school. </p>
<p>One could imagine a world where the top law firms did indeed invoke lateral hires to fill many, or even all, of their associate positions. The top firms would then just raid the best and most experienced talent from other firms rather than hire fresh law graduates who by definition have no experience. But we don’t live in that world. We have to deal with the world the way it is, not how we might like it to be.</p>
<p>Nick - All bets are off in this economy I’m afraid, but in the past, you could get into top paying firms a couple of ways. You could graduate from a T14 law school or you could graduate at the top of the class and on law review at a regional school. So, you should go into Brooklyn Law planning to work incredibly hard and graduating in the top 10% of your class. Plan to be on the Law Review - not one of the secondary reviews - but THE Law Review. If you do that, doors will be open to you at prestigious firms that pay well. While the salaries have leveled off or even dropped at some of the largest firms, the mid sized and smaller firms have remained pretty stable. There are many prominent regional and local firms that pay six figures out of or within a year or two out of law school.</p>
<p>saaky, you mentioned that “Those associates are then run through an up-or-out career track to partnership where those who don’t make it - which usually comprises the vast majority of associates - are simply replaced by batches of new graduates.”</p>
<p>what then happens to those associates who don’t make partner? after all, the number of associates becoming partner is very small. like…do they almost always get fired if they don’t eventually become partner?</p>
<p>what about those very experienced biglaw associates who want to continue working as associates rather than be promoted to partner?</p>
<p>I don’t understand the doom and gloom mentality here, and it’s unfortunate that this uninformed mentality is informing the rash decisions of parents’ and their students regarding whether to attend law school.</p>
<p>a) Yes, the legal job market is terrible right now; however, this statement is misleading. Is it terrible in absolute terms, or terrible in comparison to what we’ve been accustomed to for the past 10 years? I’d say the latter. Compared to the “boom” years, this year is going to be extremely terrible. Summer associate classes are shrinking, firms are cutting back, and some firms are even lowering salaries that they hiked up in order to compete with the bigger names.</p>
<p>But in absolute terms, the legal job market isn’t bad at all, in my opinion. The fact is that friends of mine (and I) are still getting callbacks for firms that pay market in a major city, and some of my friends already have offers at those firms. Even if you wanted 145k, or 125k, it’s not that hard to obtain that kind of salary in this economy (assuming you are well credentialed, of course). The fact that these jobs are still out there for the picking demonstrates that the legal job market in no way compares to how terrible the overall job market is, where it’s–in general–nearly impossible to find a job… or even just a job that provides compensation and benefits commensurate with your experience.</p>
<p>But this squeemishness from parents and students bespeaks, in my opinion, an atrocious sense of entitlement, which is something I’ll touch on later in this post. Aside from that, I’m afraid the lesson to be drawn from all of this is: Yes, students can no longer slack off at T14 and expect that 160k job out of graduation. They actually have to work hard for it. It’s a shame that parents and students are being discouraged from law school because of this, because it essentially communicates that unless the degree allows one to get these jobs through coasting, it isn’t worth it. Hello? That was what was precisely wrong with the economy: People coasting through things and getting money for it.</p>
<p>Welcome to the real world. In the real world, there are no lifestyle firms (at least lifestyle firms that are doing well in this economy); hard work is inherent in the legal profession, so if you were hoping to coast through law school, you might want to rethink your goals; and yes, you have to work hard for money.</p>
<p>The key thing to glean from all these threads and overall literature is that while the legal job market is terrible, top students at top law schools are still getting the jobs. The definition of “top” varies from school to school, with around top 30% being sufficient from a school like Columbia. </p>
<p>b) I just want to hark back to the disgusting level of entitlement I’m seeing here. I don’t know. When I started my law degree, and one reason I decided to pursue one, was just for the intrinsically valuable opportunity to learn about the law and to make a positive contribution to society. I didn’t know much about biglaw or that the starting salary is 160k, and I didn’t really care. People shouldn’t be motivated to go to law school for the money; they should be motivated to go because they are genuinely interested in the work. This is why law school is not a great “default career path,” because most who see it as a default end up being miserable.</p>
<p>Even in a good economy, people who never really enjoyed law, but just did it for the money, stuck out like sore thumbs during OCI and while working at firms. They were the folks who struggled to get jobs, and if they got a job, they usually occupied the preponderance of big firms’ attrition rates. </p>
<p>So, in a way, I’m glad parents here are now pushing their kids away from the law, and that kids themselves are getting discouraged. It’s precisely those people, who feel that whether they get a law degree hinges on the probability of drawing a 160k salary, that shouldn’t be entering the legal field in the first place.</p>
<p>c) As an aside, I would just like to say that if the legal job market has really hit bottom, things can only get better from here. Prospective law students would do well to realize that, if they started the law school application process, they’d be starting in a year, and interviewing in two years. I wouldn’t be surprised if the job market was somewhat better by then.</p>
<p>flowerhead - if you are still in law school, you have no idea whether you will enjoy the work. Thinking that you went to law school for the right reasons and thinking that you will enjoy practicing mean nothing until you start practicing. You could end up hating it and your disgustingly entitled classmate who started law school for the money could end up loving it. You might want to wait to make pronouncements about the real world until you are in it.</p>
<p>I agree with much of what you are saying. However, there is the matter of how much debt you are going to have and whether you can make enough money to pay it back without too much hardship. I never felt that pressure when I was in law school (top 5 school). I didn’t have debt and I never wanted to work for Big Law. Also, back then it was possible to go right into a corporation. That is very rare now, because they want to see law firm experience.
There is a lot of entitlement, but there is also pure exhaustion from the entire competitiveness of the education process. All through high school there was the pressure to get into the highly selective colleges. Then, once in, the pressure to get a high GPA and a high LSAT (or MCAT etc) score to get into the top professional schools. Then, once in, OMG you have to make THE Law Review and, oh by the way, you need a Federal clerkship. I have had a great legal career without Law Review (I worked in legal aid clinic which was awesome experience and very fun) or a clerkship. I think a lot of students, my kid among them, just want off of the hamster wheel. It’s a shame, because I know my kid would really take to the study and practice of law and I hope he comes back to it.</p>
<p>it was a way different world when hubby got his JD degree. No worry about debt (he swears it cost around $10,000 for his degree in the 1970’s) and law school grads found good jobs with government, corpoations, legal aid and other non profits.
my group of lawyer friends (and it is a large group) didn’t know from “BigLaw” nor “BigBucks”. Most went into the profession to make the world a better place.
ah- the idealism of the '60’s.
and many of the same lawyer friends are not encouraging their own kids to go into the profession if their aim is to get a BIGLAW job, work ridiculous hours and have no life.</p>
<p>Honestly- if my kid would make less in salary and still have a life to lead, I’d be a happier mom. But the $150,000 or so in debt, is going to make that difficult</p>
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<p>That’s certainly reasonable; however, the only real “pronouncement to the real world” I made is that you have to work hard for that 160k. I’m sure that’s not controversial, and you don’t need a big firm job or three years of law school to realize that.</p>
<p>flowerhead, while you make some good points, I do have to disagree with some of the things you said.</p>
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<p>Actually, based on what I’ve seen during my career and what many senior partners are saying based upon their much more lengthy careers, this is a historical low for the legal market. More troubling, perhaps, is that many law firms are deferring the start dates of their incoming associates and asking associates to take leaves from the firm, which will increase the glut of attorneys lined up waiting for jobs. Since the attorneys who were deferred/who took leave will have first dibs on jobs at many of these law firms, newly minted law grads are going to have an steep hill to climb for at least 3-4 years into the future unless the economy makes a miraculous recovery the likes of which no one has ever seen and no one is predicting. </p>
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<p>I would even suggest that the hiring at the T14 goes even deeper than you are suggesting. The hiring outside of the T14 is much more shallow than ever in recent history. For example, while one top NYC BIGLAW firm of which I am aware would typically hire one or two people from each of Brooklyn Law and Fordham Law (typically tippy top students with work experience and/or something else to offer), this firm will likely not offer any callbacks at these law schools this year (unless someone is truly outstanding – the kind of person who could have gone to Harvard Law but attended Brooklyn or Fordham for family or similar reasons).</p>
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<p>I agree completely that one should not go to law school unless they are (or they think they are) genuinely interested in the work (keeping in mind that until you actually work in a law firm, you don’t really know what the work and the demands of working long, unpredictable hours are like). However, if a law student needs to take out a tremendous amount of student loans in order to attend law school, then this calculus must be more pragmatic. A law school graduate with over $100k (and often $150k) of student loans must be able to find a high paying job. So, focusing on the availability of high paying jobs is not necessarily due to a sense of entitlement, but may instead be due to practical circumstances that make obtaining that job a necessity.</p>
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<p>I disagree completely. The economy is still stalled, and, as I noted in my response to you above, the glut of attorneys with places reserved for them at BIGLAW firms in 2010, 2011 and 2012 will mean that for years to come, law school grads will struggle to find jobs. Those attorneys who are now underemployed as they seek employment will never be in a position to lateral at a higher level into these law firms because they won’t have the necessary experience. The situation is bad and getting worse, as law firms announce that they are cutting back their summer programs, canceling their summer programs altogether and making offers to few, if any, of the summer associates that they do hire. For summers who receive offers of employment, their start dates are often being deferred for one, two or even three years. Ouch!</p>