Do people realize that chasing big merit means applying to less selective schools?

Paying for College
44

I think one of the best ways for people to think of Lesser Known Schools is to think about the PhD market. There are people who have spent a lot of time to get a PhD (frequently at a Big Name institution). But(with the exception of a couple of fields with high demand outside of the ivory tower), there are far more people with top credentials who want a faculty spot than there are spots. Thus, even at universities that have very little “reputation,” if you look at their faculty bios, they’ve gotten their degrees from the Big Name schools.

I wonder whether there are students who go to Big Name School and keep doing all the things to “tick off the boxes” and then don’t get the job in IB, or FAANG, or whatever goal they were shooting for, and then say that all their efforts in college were “wasted.” I think that’s part of why I like it when people post that students should be enjoying their lives now, doing the activities they like, the courses they like, being social, etc.

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45

A show of hands- how many of us who have raised “late bloomers” (or were late bloomers ourselves) would be happy with one of the much vaunted educational systems that folks on CC cite as being “better”?

I have a cousin in Europe whose guidance counselor suggested a cake decorating program at a vocational HS since she missed the cut-off for the pre-university track. (parents sent her abroad, ignored the advice, and she now works in a managerial role in big tech).

Do you know what it’s like in some parts of the world if you have a kid with ADHD, dysgraphia, or is just a plain vanilla late bloomer with poor executive functioning? It isn’t any easier supporting yourself on a minimum wage job in other countries, especially if you have the intellectual horsepower to be at university instead of mixing frosting at a commercial bakery.

It’s not like every smart kid in the UK gets to decide between Oxford and Cambridge. And I’m willing to bet there are some VERY talented kids who get sidetracked onto a non-university track and never get back on.

Sometimes it’s nice living in a country that gives second chances. I can’t imagine my kids lives if 7th or 8th grade had been the funnel years!

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46

Or, your entire academic and career path being dependent on a single set of exams (as is the case in many European and Asian countries).

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47

The Canada situation is more based on size, location, and public control of desired universities than early specialization and weed out in middle school. The most analogous US situation would be states like Arizona and Hawaii for students who stay in-state, where the most desired school(s) are big publics located in the biggest metro areas.

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48

I think there are any high achieving students who aren’t upset at not being able to attend the Notre dame’s, Boston college, NYU’s, and those schools aren’t the cream of the crop, but even if at the top of their class can’t afford Elon, Bentley, UMD, Lafayette. My oldest started college in 2014 and I’ve watched tuition rise and merit drop. Costs are just out of control. I think my parents paid $20,000 all in for my OOS public education. Lots of parents are shocked not only with the costs, and the lack of FA. There is a recent thread with a very accomplished student having to narrow down options to a handful due to costs. Isn’t the point of public universities to provide a college education to those who can’t afford private?

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49

How many kids in Asia/Europe are “poor test-takers”? Pity the hard-working, bright kids who don’t have the options they have in the US…

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Of course, student opportunities in the US have a lot more to do with parent financial resources.

Also, the US is not free of middle school tracking limiting some students’opportunities.

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51

Limiting SOME student opportunities is not the same thing as having a national university/non-university system.

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52

I have gotten all of the information that I have learned from Common Data Sets (thank you to the posters here who have explained how to find them) and attending virtual and in-person information sessions and tours at various colleges. The differing policies and the obvious, ever shifting priorities that go unspoken between the different schools are what makes the entire process confusing.

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53

My hand is up!

My spouse: intelligent but was a terrible student in “college prep for all” high school (undiagnosed ADD probably.) He graduated from high school (barely) and then failed out of college. Worked for 10 years, and then went to trade school, where he excelled, and makes a very good living doing a job vital to our society. Had he gone to trade school from the start, he would have been much better off.

Myself: low income, hard working, top stats. If I had gone to school in one of these other countries, I would have graduated with no (or much lower) loans. This would have freed me up for certain opportunities that I had to bypass.

My first kid: A lot like me as a student. A test score on a Saturday afternoon won him a designation that got him a full-tuition scholarship (at a school nobody has heard of, but I’m not complaining.) A few points lower? It would have been a totally different story. Total COA at the top ranked college for his major where he was accepted? Literally $356K !

My second kid: Would make an outstanding (I mean outstanding) cake decorator. Hating every minute of “college prep for all.”

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54

It’s based on higher ed funding, or rather lack of US prioritization of higher ed funding. Aggressive weeding out based on various metrics and judgements occurs in the US system as well, beginning at kindergarten entry and increasing throughout elementary and middle into high school at regular intervals (K, 3, 6, 9, 10 being the most common points).

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55

Yes, college costs have risen rapidly and at a higher rate than inflation. But, in the macro picture, you have to look at NET COA…which hasn’t increased faster than inflation over the last several decades. The average college discount rate is around 54%:

https://www.nacubo.org/Press-Releases/2022/Tuition-Discount-Rates-at-Private-Colleges-and-Universities-Hit-All-Time-Highs

Average net COA for last 20 years or so in this report starting around page 17 (I know it’s CollegeBoard, but the data are good):

Here’s a one year snapshot (2020-21, the most recent data) from NCES, as compared to a decade ago looking at average tuition/fees (not including room and board):

Average tuition and fees were higher in academic year 2020–21 than in academic year 2010–11 for first-time, full-time undergraduate students at public, private nonprofit, and private for-profit 4-year institutions (in constant 2020–21 dollars). At public 4-year institutions, average tuition and fees were $9,400 in 2020–21, about 10 percent higher than they were in 2010–11 ($8,500). At private nonprofit 4-year institutions, average tuition and fees were $37,600 in 2020–21, about 19 percent higher than they were in 2010–11 ($31,700). At private for-profit 4-year institutions, average tuition and fees were $18,200 in 2020–21, about 1 percent higher than they were in 2010–11 ($18,100).

And net price looking at full COA (from 2019-20) from the same source:

In academic year 2019–20, among 4-year institutions, the average net price of attendance (in constant 2020–21 dollars) for first-time, full-time undergraduate students awarded Title IV aid6 was lowest for students at public institutions ($14,200). The net price of attendance was higher at both private for-profit institutions ($23,200) and private nonprofit institutions ($28,100). Similarly, the average net price at 2-year institutions in 2019–20 was lowest at public institutions ($7,600). The net price of attendance was higher at private nonprofit institutions ($20,000) and private for-profit institutions ($22,200).

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cua

I do understand that there are many families who are expected to be full pay when their circumstances do not allow that, and neither FAFSA nor CSS take into account the fact that cost of living is quite different depending where one lives. The new FAFSA will help some families, hurt others.

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56

This conversation is not about need-based aid.

57

All of that data also includes merit aid (merit also =discount), you can’t separate it out unfortunately (have to go to the CDSs for that)

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58

It’s too bad your school doesn’t offer vocational pathways for high school students. I guess we are lucky in our part of the U.S. in that our high school offers both pathways - the college prep one and a vocational, dual enrollment path that get high school students certification/AA degrees in lots of vocational areas (including culinary!) if they choose that before 10th grade (the dual enrollment part starts in 11th grade).

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59

My daughter has a small merit-based scholarship at her university (large public). Filling out the FAFSA was not required in order to qualify for the merit award, however she/we had to fill it out in order to claim the award. And we have to submit a new FAFSA every year by the university’s deadline, in order to continue to receive the scholarship.

ETA: for what it’s worth, we do not qualify for need based aid.

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60

I think such schools are in the minority. All the merit giving schools I personally know of, don’t require FAFSA or CSS at all.

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61

I agree - but they are out there, so it’s important to check what each college’s policy is. Didn’t have to do it when my older daughter was applying, and she received plenty of merit.

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62

My kid got a really unusual half tuition scholarship at a public U. FAFSA was required to be considered for it. And it was to confirm you don’t qualify for Pell. We are also full pay (but can’t actually afford it). We just filed all that paperwork all for my younger kid that is just graduating high school after that experience. She did pick a college that probably ticks in a little under our state flagship with merit (though it will definitely be a wash with COL/travel).

I do a little advising in this area at times and have followed this admissions closely. It is completely understandable to me why parents are confused coming into the process for the first time about how the financial end shakes out. I also don’t think we’re doing anyone a service by implying schools that give merit are undesirable. My older kid had a really fantastic and rigorous ed attending a school on merit for 1/3 the price of his highest end private.

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63

I agree, but we were giving these examples in response to a question upthread. A poster was confused by the difference in merit and need-aid… because they’d noticed some merit scholarships were asking for FAFSA.

IMO, if merit is important to your family and you don’t want to spend time researching the intricacies of each school’s merit policies, just file the FAFSA (it takes about 30 min) and submit to all schools (even if it shows an EFC of $100k++). Otherwise you’ll spend much more than 30 minutes if you choose to research. :grinning:

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