<p>So why wouldn’t a kid be attracted to both Duke and UChicago, @1203southview? In fact if what you listed are the only criteria, why wouldn’t a kid send off apps to 20 research universities and 20 LACs since they all offer that?</p>
<p>
Yes, both of these schools offer those benefits, but so do dozens of other schools, so there’s no reason to target the Ivy League when seeking an outstanding peer group, small classes, strong research and good support, and certainly no reason to target Ivy League schools that offer widely different physical environments and cultures (there’s a lot more separating Dartmouth and Columbia than the size of the town).</p>
<p>Some things that people who haven’t actually researched colleges don’t understand:</p>
<p>The Ivy League is an East coast intercollegiate sports conference, with member schools in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Massachusetts. Any other use of the term “Ivy” with regard to colleges and universities is informal and has no more meaning than, “the schools I have in mind when I use the term.” It is used to suggest academic excellence and prestige in such cases. There are no official “Little Ivies”, “Black Ivies”, “Southern Ivies”, “Catholic Ivy”, etc.</p>
<p>The Ivy League was officially organized in 1954. Most of the individual member schools (all except Cornell) were founded prior to the US Revolution. All the Ivy League schools are private except some programs in Cornell. Interestingly, of the 9 Colonial (pre-Revolutionary) colleges, the 7 in the Ivy League are all private and the other 2 (Rutgers and William & Mary) are both public.</p>
<p>Although the Ivy League has reportedly considered inviting additional members, and there are various urban legends about schools being invited to join and declining, there is no record of any school other than the current members being officially invited to join.</p>
<p>Princeton has no school of law, medicine, or business. (That may be interesting only to me.)</p>
<p>There are plenty of other schools of comparable prestige and excellence. Some people think “Ivy League” simply refers to such excellence, or excellence and prestige and age, and will argue that Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, etc., are “Ivy League.” They are wrong. That does not in any way detract from those other schools.</p>
<p>Personal prediction: although there is no inherent rule or bylaw preventing it, I expect the Ivy League will never try to expand. The term “Ivy” has become so loaded that any expansion would only dilute it, there is enough confusion over the term as it is, they have perfectly acceptable intercollegiate sports programs, rivalries, and schedules as it is, and they all have sufficiently large endowments that I cannot foresee any of them needing money, ever.</p>
<p>@MommaJ
According to USNews, 30% of Columbia’s students are Pell Grant recipients. That’s more than the majority of all other top schools (except for the UCs and USC). I think that’s a desirable enough statistic to be attracted to Columbia, or at least desirable enough for low income students anyways.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Columbia has some large classes. For example, for fall 2014,
<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/ECON/W1105-20143-001/”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/ECON/W1105-20143-001/</a>
<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/ECON/W1105-20143-002/”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/ECON/W1105-20143-002/</a>
<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/ECON/W1105-20143-003/”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/ECON/W1105-20143-003/</a>
<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/CHEM/C1403-20143-001/”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/CHEM/C1403-20143-001/</a>
<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/CHEM/C1403-20143-002/”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/CHEM/C1403-20143-002/</a>
<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/CHEM/C1403-20143-003/”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/CHEM/C1403-20143-003/</a>
<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/COMS/W1004-20143-001/”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/COMS/W1004-20143-001/</a>
<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/BIOL/C2005-20143-001/”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/BIOL/C2005-20143-001/</a>
<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/BIOL/C2005-20143-002/”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/subj/BIOL/C2005-20143-002/</a></p>
<p>Also, the social scene at Dartmouth is heavy with fraternities and sororities; about 2/3 of eligible (sophomore and higher) students join. At Columbia, a much smaller percentage joins fraternities and sororities.</p>
<p>Fredjan, who even suggested that Columbia wouldn’t be attractive to low-income students? My sole point is that any student fixated on Ivy League schools as a group is not making an intelligent analysis of college choices. </p>
<p>"Rutgers was asked to join the Ivy League and here’s the source. </p>
<p>^ Several articles 1948-1956 in the The Daily Targum (Rutgers University’s campus newspaper), located in The Targum, The Rutgers Targum and The Daily Targum (then printed weekly) Microfilm records (1) v.87-v.94:no.35 OCT 17,1945-APR 10,1953, and (2) v.94:no.36-v.104:no.58 APR 17,1953-DEC 5,1972 (2 rolls) and Walton R. Johnson Papers (1949-2001), Special Collections and University Archives, Archibald S. Alexander Library, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, New Jersey. </p>
<p>Now if you ask the Ivy League, their official response is “We have no records of any invitation being extended.” Which is different from, “we never extended an invitation.” My understanding is that the offer was conditional on Rutgers foregoing the state university/land grant designation which would have required them to split off the Ag school on Douglass Campus. RU said no thanks. So the negotiations probably never got past that point into more formal negotiations."</p>
<p>The above was from a Google search. I was actually at a Rutgers presentation where a speaker made the claim that they were invited to join the Ivy League and turned it down. Don’t know why they would be claiming this if it wasn’t true but either way, I have no axe to grind.</p>
<p>While it’s true that the Ivy League is a sports conferences, it’s not entirely true that it’s just a sports conference (which is another reason why it’s not likely to expand, nor is any school likely to leave it to become part of another conference). It’s also a group of highly selective schools in the Northeast, and their “brand” is often used as shorthand for excellence. But if you’re going to use it as that kind of shorthand, it’s silly to say that there are now 10 schools in it—really, more like15 or 20, depending on what kind of line-drawing you do. Furthermore, I’d probably leave MIT out entirely, because it’s a different kind of school in the first place.</p>
<p>I don’t think there really is a good catchall term for “very highly selective private research universities.”</p>
<p>Supposedly, Rutgers was <em>planning</em> to <em>petition</em> to join the Ivy League in 1953… the request would have been from, not to, Rutgers. <a href=“Rutgers Officials May Apply For Ivy League Membership | News | The Harvard Crimson”>http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1953/10/28/rutgers-officials-may-apply-for-ivy/</a> (and note that the IL was officially founded in 1954, but the talks were already going on and publicly discussed in 1953.)</p>
<p>This 1982 NYT article says they were <em>considering</em> expanding to 10 schools. <a href=“Ivy League Considers Adding 2 Schools - The New York Times”>http://www.nytimes.com/1982/01/10/sports/ivy-league-considers-adding-2-schools.html</a></p>
<p>The Straight Dope covered the topic: <a href=“Why do they call it the Ivy League? - The Straight Dope”>http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1933/why-do-they-call-it-the-ivy-league</a></p>
<p>I saw the Yahoo answers response. I’d like to see the content of those articles that the respondent claims verify the story. I note that they are all on microfilm/microfiche that covers periods from before until after the League was officially formed. I also note that the Yahoo answer didn’t include any quotes. “President of Rutgers says, ‘We were invited to join Ivy League and we have now decided to decline,’” would have been BIG news.</p>
<p>“Now if you ask the Ivy League, their official response is “We have no records of any invitation being extended.” Which is different from, “we never extended an invitation.””
Well, that’s conspiracy-talk. I’m sure if <em>anyone</em> had a verifiable record of such an invitation being extended to <em>any</em> other college than the current members, we should be able to find a copy of it somewhere, and post it for public review. There’s certainly no reason for anyone to hide such evidence, if it existed. Further, the reason commonly given - that public schools would have to privatize and were unwilling to do so - is belied by the facts that parts of Cornell are already public, and that two of the schools actually named as under consideration (although never actually invited) are the most public any school can possibly be, the USMA and the USNA.</p>
<p>I could be persuaded otherwise by evidence, but the Yahoo answer doesn’t have links to sources.</p>
<p>A little searching shows that this is a VERY common belief, and many people (who often were not born until many years later) simply assert that Rutgers (or W&M or whatever school they are attending) was invited to join, based on common knowledge that everyone (at that school) knows. But there is never any verifiable substance to these urban legends. </p>
<p>The nearest truth I can find anywhere is that a merger of the College of New Jersey (now Princeton) and Queen’s College (now Rutgers) was proposed, but NOT enacted, in 1792.</p>
<p>So, “College X was invited to join the Ivy League, but declined” is FALSE.</p>
<p>Columbia has one of the best financial aid programs in the nation and one of the highest percentage of students on aid of the elite colleges. Columbia is exactly the place that a low income student should be looking.</p>
<p>
This may be the source of the idea that Rutgers was invited to join the Ivy League, and a bit more reading about it makes the claim a bit more “truthy.” It appears that the merger was proposed by officials of the College of New Jersey, and rejected by officials of Queens College. So, arguably, if that “invitation” had not been declined, Rutgers (in some form) would now be part of the Ivy League. </p>
<p>A little bit truthy. But Rutgers (before it was Rutgers) rejecting a merger proposal in the 18th century from Princeton (before it was Princeton), and so could have eventually ended up in the Ivy League if that one historic choice had been different, is really pretty far from the urban legend that Rutgers (a distinct and separate university) was invited to join the Ivy League (an intercollegiate athletic conference of 8 universities formed in 1954). </p>
<p>In the common form, the urban legend suggests and implies that the Ivy League collectively determined, in modern times (either at or after its formation in 1954), that Rutgers was so clearly and obviously their peer that not only should it be invited in as an equal member, but they would be collectively worse off to not at least try to bring it in, and that Rutgers decided that joining the athletic conference would not be in their own best interests. In this telling, Rutgers “wins”.</p>
<p>“In 1782, (the college that is now Princeton) thought that merging with (the college that is now Rutgers) made sense,” just doesn’t have the same impact. It lacks the connotation of a power/prestige struggle between the Ivies (as a group) and Rutgers.</p>
<p>
I agree, but it’s pretty harmless, and it’s truthy enough that I don’t see much need to correct the record.</p>
<p>I suppose both Vassar and Smith could say that they were invited to join the Ivy League in a similar way.</p>
<p>@Hunt: Re: “Very highly selective private research universities”:
I use the term “elite privates” or “elite private RUs”.</p>
<p>You can also go with “Ivy/Ivy-equivalent”, though that means something slightly different to me: <a href=“Ivy-equivalents - #31 by PurpleTitan - College Search & Selection - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1682986-ivy-equivalents-p3.html</a></p>
<p>Didn’t read the thread but…</p>
<p>MIT is a member of the ‘Ivy Group’ but the ‘Ivy League’ is just an athletic conference comprised of well respected schools. MIT is a Division-III school so there is no way they will join a Division-I athletic conference. The Ivy Group was a grouping of schools that agreed to not offer merit aid to students and not to compete with each other for students. MIT has always been an academic peer and attends administration meetings of member schools but is not an athletic peer. </p>
<p>This is similar to the University of Chicago which is a member of the Committee on Institutional Cooperation which is the Big Ten Academic Association despite not being a member of the Big Ten Conference. </p>
<p>There are a lot of schools with a similar academic reputation as those that make up that athletic conference but it doesn’t mean they will join the athletic conference. Keep in mind that the University Athletic Association is the only athletic conference where every member school is also a member of the elite Association of American Universities.</p>
<p>‘Ivy Plus’ is the colloquial term that is used to describe the schools like Stanford, Duke, Chicago and others that are peers but not members of the athletic conference…</p>
<p>I believe Pinnum is referring to the “Overlap Group”.
<a href=“http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1991-05-23/news/9102280171_1_financial-aid-overlap-group-universities-and-colleges”>http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1991-05-23/news/9102280171_1_financial-aid-overlap-group-universities-and-colleges</a>
Under current usage, the Ivy League and the Ivy Group are synonymous.</p>
<p>Until UNL lost their membership, every Big Ten school was AAU as well.</p>
<p>“Yes, both of these schools offer those benefits, but so do dozens of other schools, so there’s no reason to target the Ivy League when seeking an outstanding peer group, small classes, strong research and good support, and certainly no reason to target Ivy League schools that offer widely different physical environments and cultures (there’s a lot more separating Dartmouth and Columbia than the size of the town).”</p>
<p>I didn’t say anything about targeting Ivy League schools. I just asked why wouldn’t someone like both Columbia and Dartmouth. My son toured both and liked both. Sure he liked out better but he could see himself going to the other quite happily, as well as Carnegie Mellon, USC, Johns Hopkins, Harvey Mudd. We know there are clear differences in the settings and vibe of these schools but he liked it all. While there may be dozens of other schools, the top schools generally are at the top because they stood out in research, amongst other traits. They also will have a very consistently top notch peer group, likely more so than a school ranked at 30-50. And, why not try for the schools with the best reputations especially when the campus visit only enhanced those reputations?</p>
<p>@ucbalumnus: That info re greek life would definitely tip the scale towards Columbia but it is not exclusionary for Dartmouth.</p>
<p>@Sherpa Now, the two are used interchangeably but the Ivy Group (with MIT) was the precursor to the overlap group. We are going back a while now… but MIT still keeps close ties with the Ivy league schools and it considered a peer.</p>