<p>The Ivies might not officially offer merit $$ but within my daughter's circle of friends at Columbia two students had "benefactors". Both had been outstanding performers in high school. I get the impression this was arranged through the school. These students were not URM and were from working class backrounds (both had gone to excellent high schools). One of them would actually have dinner with their benefactor from time to time. </p>
<p>My daughter thought that both students were exceptionally bright and one of them ended up being a candidate for valedictorian. I know that one of them turned down HYP to come to Columbia but cannot say for certain that having all of their costs covered was the reason. Is this a formal program of awarding merit money as an incentive to attend? No, but I would guess that all of the Ivies do this to some degree.</p>
<p>One of my son's good friends was this year's valedictorian, star student, star athlete, Mr. Homecoming, etc. etc. etc. In short, he "had it all" - ability, academics (12 AP's with all 5's), popularity, athletics, outside research/awards, etc. </p>
<p>He will be attending the state school in the honors program - all expenses paid. But, he had his heart set on Duke - attended several "sponsored" weekends interviewing for scholarships - all wonderful events where he was interviewed and entertained (luxuriously) and led to believe he would probably get "something". He was one of the last finalists at "finalist weekend" for a "full ride". End result - nothing, not even a token award. </p>
<p>He did receive prestigious awards and full rides at other similar colleges. He didn't need a "full ride" to be able to attend Duke, but couldn't afford full fare - which is what the college determined his family could afford. </p>
<p>As, many on this list have stated, do not "count" on merit aid.</p>
<p>reflectivemom: That's a great (educational) story to post here. Despite the many threads/posts on this subject, I still think most people don't have a clue as to how extremely difficult it is to receive a top merit scholarship at a top-ranked school-- much more difficult than gaining acceptance to an Ivy, I believe.</p>
<p>"most people don't have a clue as to how extremely difficult it is to receive a top merit scholarship at a top-ranked school-- much more difficult than gaining acceptance to an Ivy, I believe."</p>
<p>Very true. Those top scholarships at top-ranked colleges are given to top students whom the top ranked schools want to lure from Ivies. Consequently, only the creme de la creme get such offers.</p>
<p>Very interesting conversation guys, keep it coming. Looks like we are getting more and more info :-) I do believe that the Top Colleges (Ivies or not ) can do some smart twisting and tricking if they really want someone in. Like the benefactor that was mentioned, not a bad idea, ha ? We keep talking about a Top Scholar as an overall well rounded, good in academics and sports, tons of AP, Merit Scholar, outside research. But what about that * edit *who has an extreme passion for physics and math * identifying information edited out *
Yes, she studies hard, but also has this "gift" for understanding complex mathematical problems. And let's say she really does not care if she goes to Harvard, MIT or NYU - she just knows that for now she wants to study pure math. And let's assme that all three colleges want her. Her parents are middle class and neither can't afford nor want to pay for her college since they assume she can get a full ride somewhere (and the local state college does have a pretty reputable math program). So let's assume that she is really wanted but all three - do you think that schools will go out if their way to atract "certain" students? Just pure theory here - and thanx for your input</p>
<p>Harvard or MIT in the situation you describe would expect a family contribution. I'm on board with the idea of paying my family's full family contribution toward my children's education, whatever the colleges calculate it to be. Other parents don't make that commitment, and that makes their children "credit constrained," in some cases limiting their college choices.</p>
<p>kelowna: I think the reason people mention "top scholars" as "well rounded" is because many of the top scholarship programs aren't just interested in students who are simply academic stand-outs (though that helps, I'm sure). That said, there are schools that offer certain scholarships that focus on math or physics, specifically. For example, Duke offers a full tuition scholarship to a NC resident who scores the highest on some big math test (don't know what it's called). We know a kid who was awarded that, but turned it down for a scholarship at WashU, which I <em>think</em> was geared specifically towards physics. I know he had to take a written physics test for that one, too, and scored the highest among the finalists taking that test--which was, I gather, a large part of being awarded that scholarship. I also know a kid who was very interested in physics and contacted his state university near him, while a senior in high school. They offered him a research opportunity the summer he graduated from high school, then offered him continuing research after that, if he enrolled there. He did, and has done remarkably well. They got him a paid research internship in France last summer as I remember. He's doing serious work (will have his name on some published papers) and is only a rising junior. I don't know if he received any scholarship, but he's been able to work in his field of interest--in his state university--since before he started there. A lot of that was based on his own initiative; he contacted them initially.<br>
I also suspect, even in 2007, that for a female interested and doing well in physics and math--that would be attractive to a lot of schools.</p>
<p>" But what about that edited out identifying information from previous quote
Yes, she studies hard, but also has this "gift" for understanding complex mathematical problems."</p>
<p>Due to the shortage of females in such careers, such a girl would be at a great advantage at any college offering merit aid.</p>
<p>Given the shortage of U.S. citizens in such fields, and the post 911 difficulty in allowing foreign nationals to permanently enter the country, so would any U.S. citizen with such interests and talents.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I don't think Harvard, Yale, MIT, Princeton, Stanford will do anything other than admit her (maybe!) and give her generous financial aid based on her parents' income. Their basic position is "we're the best, if you want the best, come here, if not, fine". They have great students; they don't care enough about any one great student to change the policy. They will, however, sometimes match each other's financial aid offers (but not anyone else's).</p></li>
<li><p>If the student is as gifted as you imply, lack of well-roundedness will not matter much, if at all. It may matter in some scholarship programs (others who know them better can address that better than I), but she will be a very attractive, desirable student, and I believe that will translate into merit offers from schools that engage in that.</p></li>
<li><p>As previously discussed, there are some top-ranked schools that do have significant merit programs: Cal Tech, Chicago, Duke. CMU and NYU, too. And top state Us like Berkeley, UCLA, UNC, UVa, Michigan. Not easy to get, but if you assume a top student with demonstrated "genius", probably a good candidate.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I think having a single passion that has resulted in highest honors on the national level is a big advantage over "well-rounded" students at the top of their senior classes. I have read numerous articles, some on this forum, that top colleges are moving away from "well roundedness" toward focus on a particular passion. I'm personally a bit troubled by that, but that seems to be the trend. This passion is an attractive "hook" to top schools.</p>
<p>I think part of the reason for this trend is that there are far too many exceptional, well-rounded students applying. Heck, almost every high school in America names a Valedictorian every year, and the vast majority of them are National Merit Finalists. I've read that Harvard could fill their entering class several times over just with Valedictorians who apply and a couple of times just with applicants with perfect SAT scores. Thus, they have to look for something different.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, it was a source of frustration to my son (and to me) when he saw that the vast majority of entering freshman at Harvard are NOT National Merit Scholars, were NOT Valedictorians, and that his SAT score was higher than about 70% of the students admitted. Obviously, the top colleges are looking for something else, and I think that something else is a focused single-minded passion, honored at the nighest national and/or international levels.</p>
While I believe strongly that all colleges engage in preferential packaging of students they value the most (be that URM or International Award winners), no need-only college is going to give a "free-ride" to a kid who otherwise doesn't qualify for financial aid. Of all the cycles I have watched on CC it has never happened ( and I can assure you they would have posted such a result). Preferential packaging will sweeten the pot and may even find some need where others don't but not $45K a year. Uh-uh. Nope. Not gonna happen. You can remove that one from your daydreams.</p>
<p>I can only answer your question for Rice:
There is no special "honors" program at Rice, the theory being that all of the students on campus are of high enough quality for such a system trying to separate out the top 5% or so would serve no purpose - so no special dorms or curriculum. There is however the Century Scholars Program, which gives some merit aid (I believe it varies by student) and guarantees a research possition.</p>
<p>And when Harvard calls and leaves a message (unfortunately no one was home) that they would like to talk? Doesn't that imply that they are interested? Does it mean only - would you consider applying? - doesn't it sugest - we want you</p>
<p>Regarding "merit" aid at the UC's, they offer a Regent's Scholarship to the top 1% or so of applicants (I don't know about out of state students), but it is hardly a full ride: at UC Berkeley, it is $1,000 a year, at UCLA $5,500, at Davis $7,500, at UCSB $6,500. If the student has financial need, he/she will receive need-based aid as well.</p>
<p>Even some Ivies have 'honors' programs. Mostly for research and to encourage Phds and Rhodes scholars, though. See Penn and Columbia for example (although Columbia's scholars program can, in part, be attributed to their desire to woo URM students)</p>
I am a big booster of the bwrk's (bright well rounded kids) around here and want to say that while I agree that passion is the new "catch phrase", that passion can be shown in ways other than lop-sidedness or national or international awards. Some kids gain entry with some state level recognition, or maybe some local but interesting or unique "see a problem, fix a problem" activities. I don't want folks thinking that "normal" high stat , high rank kids need some "fantabulously fantabulous" national or international recognition or award to gain admittance to our most selective schools. </p>
<p>Nothing sells like a well thought out custom tailored package that speaks for the applicant in the language the adcoms want to see. No "big stage" is required for all students. Candidates who excel at everything- music, sports, academics, service and show initiative , and a limber and active mind- they can still get in. JMO</p>
<p>Kelowna, most of our kids received the same kind of calls and letters. You shouldn't assume admittance, and certainly not admittance with cash above the norm for your EFC. Does it show some level of interest ? Absolutely, just not as much as we all would like. ;)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Originally Posted by darius
Nevertheless, it was a source of frustration to my son (and to me) when he saw that the vast majority of entering freshman at Harvard are NOT National Merit Scholars, were NOT Valedictorians, and that his SAT score was higher than about 70% of the students admitted. Obviously, the top colleges are looking for something else, and I think that something else is a focused single-minded passion, honored at the nighest national and/or international levels
<p>For many admitted students, however, val and NM Scholar status is immaterial. Harvard has something like 9% international students, none of whom, I assume, qualify as vals in their own system (I know that French schools don't have vals and sals). There are as well early graduates and homeschooled students, many of whom have gone far beyond the curriculum needed to score 800s on the SAT or qualify as vals.</p>
<p>I agree with Curmudgeon. Harvard and other top colleges have been beating the bushes lately, trying to solicity applications from areas that normally do not send (m)any students to these schools. It's no guarantee of specific interest, but if you feel you might be competitive, do consider applying.</p>
<p>
[quote]
For many admitted students, however, val and NM Scholar status is immaterial. Harvard has something like 9% international students, none of whom, I assume, qualify as vals in their own system (I know that French schools don't have vals and sals). There are as well early graduates and homeschooled students, many of whom have gone far beyond the curriculum needed to score 800s on the SAT or qualify as vals.
[/quote]
Additionally, many Harvard students are also from MA which has a very high National Merit Semifinalist level, usually about 222. Though many Harvard students get this level, particularly on the SAT, many students don't, especially if it's their first time taking the test.</p>