<p>"Only 17 music concentrators" One who did not : Stefan Jackiw, who has already built an awesome career as a violinist:</p>
<p>I'm sorry if my syntax was confusing; I don't think that Harvard prides itself on the fact that relatively few students go on to careers in their extracurricular activities, just in the fact that the students are mostly self-directed at Harvard. I think Harvard (if one can speak about a university as a singular noun) would be delighted for its graduates to go on to careers in music, journalism, etc. -- and some have done so and been very successful, too. But Harvard students do so on their own.</p>
<p>For a list of past Harvard Crimson editors, see
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Harvard_Crimson%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Harvard_Crimson</a></p>
<p>mamenyu,
Oh, I now get what you're saying, and totally agree.</p>
<p>Going back to the whole acceptance to Harvard. What is really bad is that this is basically the only US school that is known worldwide. Look at some international posts, they all think of Harvard. When you talk to the parent in S. Korea - they want their kids at Harvard (there was a program on NPR after VT). This is the first US college that comes to their minds.
Another is this craziness about aplying to so many colleges - most apply to Ivies just for the sake, if they are accepted they can brag about it. If no, they can say that they applied and somehow implie that they were "good enough" to apply. All of this is contributing to the craziness and is making the whole admission process much more competitive than it should be.</p>
<p>Yes, Harvard is a great school, but there are lots of great schools out there where students can get a wonderful education. It is too bad that there is such an overemphasis on a handful of "tippy-top" schools. And that overemphasis can lead some students to make choices that are not optimal for them, sometimes the very same students who were admitted because of some wonderful talent. For the YoYo Ma's out there, who come to Harvard with professional skills and management, it can be a wonderful alternative (e.g., to a conservatory); but for many of the others, with talent that might need more support, it might not be the ideal place.</p>
<p>Harvard admission officers are very proud of Harvard alumnus Yo-Yo Ma, and they take care to mention that his attending a college that doesn't offer a music performance major didn't ruin his chances to have a great career as a musician. (Leonard Bernstein is an example from an earlier generation.)</p>
<p>Kelowna:</p>
<p>Actually, THE school favored by Korean-Americans seems to be Chicago. Among LACs, Williams seems to be very popular as well. Both terrific schools.</p>
<p>I was told that Stefan Jackiw majored in psychology while also attending NEC. I heard him perform; he deserves every kudo he gets.</p>
<p>Kelowna: Agree with your post above.^</p>
<p>I also feel that some schools (ie, Harvard) seem to really love and want those students who have already published; already performed on a national or world stage; already made a national ranking in a sport, etc. I hate to be cynical (really, I do), but I can't help but think that's the easy route for a school-- easy to take credit if the student has already made a national name for him/herself before he/she ever arrives on the campus, regardless if it's the field the student ultimately chooses for life (or it's a side EC for life). That's not to say Harvard doesn't offer an exceptional education, obviously, but there's something also impressive about a school that can take a student and help to shape that student-- help him/her to become something more--maybe something he or she had never dreamed of becoming-- not merely provide a space (albeit a great educational space) for an already amazingly accomplished (nationally or internationally so) person. </p>
<p>That's a bit convoluted, I guess, but I'm always reminded of a voice teacher I knew who, while an excellent singer/performer herself, could only really teach those who already knew how to sing perfectly. Not such a hard job, that. She had great connections, so while these already-proficient students got great performing gigs, based on her recommendation, she ultimately took full credit for their excellent singing abilities-- which they already possessed, long before they ever connected with her.</p>
<p>I tend to agree with Jack on this point. And Jakiew is an example of that: he was apparently a recognized violin talent at 14 -- long before he came to Harvard, he had played in some important venues. Undoubtedly he did not go to Harvard to develop that talent -- he went to NEC for that. He went to Harvard because he wanted to do something in addition to music. Good for him! But not necessarily so good for a musician who wants someday to play like Jakiew or YoYo Ma and isn't there yet.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I find that statement rather surprising. </p>
<p>According to the revealed preference study below, among the general population of college applicants, the probability that a student would choose to attend Harvard rather than Chicago is well over 90%.</p>
<p>I'd be very curious about marite's data source for the assertion that Korean Americans are so different from the general population in favoring Chicago as THE school?</p>
<p>Wisteria:</p>
<p>This is not about revealed preference. As you know, the revealed preference study only works if students apply to both schools. We don't know if the students at Chicago also applied to Harvard, were admitted and decided to go to Chicago instead.
The information about Korean-American students at Chicago comes from a friend of mine who taught there.</p>
<p>Northstarmom, as always some great posts. My point on NMS's was simply the one I made. There are "relatively" fewer at Harvard because the school itself does not fund the scholarship. If it were to do so, the numbers would be much higher, I think you would agree, than you cite.</p>
<p>And an excellent precis on what diversity in a class really means, and why your average student body president captain of the basketball team valedictorian has such a difficult time with Ivy admissions nowadays.</p>
<p>"I also feel that some schools (ie, Harvard) seem to really love and want those students who have already published; already performed on a national or world stage; already made a national ranking in a sport, etc."</p>
<p>Of course Harvard wants the students who've already demonstrated excellence and commitment to a field. That's the privilege of being a top college: being able to select the students who already are top performers across the board. </p>
<p>The value of going to a place like Harvard is beng surrounded by a lot of people who have achieved at a high level and are passionate about what they do. </p>
<p>It's not Harvard that caused the students to be successful after college. They already had demonstrated the traits and talents to be successful long before they went to Harvard, and they probably would have ended up being successful even if they had gone to Podunk U.</p>
<p>To me, the main benefit of going to Harvard and similar schools as an undegrad is that one gets a lot of inspiration and knowledge from being surrounded by peers who are extremely talented and self motivated in terms of their ECs and academics. That to me is the value of the Harvard education, not what the faculty offers in the classroom. </p>
<p>Colleges that are lower ranked and not as attractive to the students who already achieved at high levels can choose to take a lot of pride in being "colleges that change lives" as Loren Pope puts it. And at such colleges, the faculty probably is who makes the most difference in students' lives by mentoring them and showing the kind of personal interest that usually doesn't exist at places like Harvard where faculty are valued by the institution for their research, not teaching skills.</p>
<p>The way of selecting students/employees exists in other institutions. When top corporations look to hire people, they look to hire people with demonstrated talent and achievements. They aren't looking for average people who may be inspired by the environment to grow a great deal. The lower ranked corporations that also pay less and attract few superstar performers take pride in being places where people can develop before going to higher ranked places.</p>
<p>""Northstarmom, as always some great posts. My point on NMS's was simply the one I made. There are "relatively" fewer at Harvard because the school itself does not fund the scholarship. If it were to do so, the numbers would be much higher, I think you would agree"</p>
<p>Yes, I agree. I know students who have because of lavish merit aid chosen schools like UNC or University of Florida over places like Harvard. If it hadn't been for the money, the students would have gone to Harvard.</p>
<p>mamenyu: I guess my point, too, is that for the rest of time, Jakiew and YoYo Ma, will always have Harvard on their bios. Harvard adcoms know this when looking at their applications. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that (after all, schools are businesses, too), but their musical abilities/accomplishments--again, already outstanding before they ever stepped on that campus--will reflect back on Harvard, for all eternity. I guess I find that a little troubling.</p>
<p>Northstarmom: I understand what you're saying (post 115), certainly, and agree with most of it. A big difference exists, however, between someone who has made an international name for him/herself at the ripe old age of 17, whether in publishing, performing, athletics, etc., and an applicant who has "demonstrated excellence and commitment to a field." That's a wide range. Both might be intriguing applicants, but I suspect Harvard would rather take the "already made it" applicant over the other. I don't think that's necessarily wrong, but I do think we should view that stance clearly for what it is.</p>
<p>I'll also just add that I think many merit scholarships are connected to outstanding programs that encompass a great deal more than simply offering "money" or "aid." (It's not always about money . . .)</p>
<p>Let's keep it real. Yo-yo Ma and Stefan Jackiw were/are not the only students at Harvard. Not all students are published authors or acclaimed concert performers before they reach Harvard.</p>
<p>My only reason for mentioning Jackiw had to do with the 17 music concentrators in a college of 6,000+. There are many many students who are excellent performers who are not majoring in music. Similarly, Harvard does not have a journalism major, but plenty of its graduates have gone on to illustrious careers in journalism. And so on and so forth.</p>
<p>For those who have not achieved superstar status in high school, it can be very appealing to be among extremely high achieving students and be pushed to their limits in order to keep up. In that sense, Harvard does a tremendous job of educating them. It changes their lives just as much as Loren Pope's beloved CTCLs.</p>
<p>Here's an interesting economics paper about the OP's issue: </p>
<p>Interesting article. The conclusion of the article appears to be that about 1/3 of students are enticed by financial aid packages to make college decisions that are not in their long term best interest, i.e., that their selection of a college offering financial aid actually cost them more over the course of their careers than the amount of money they saved by accepting the financial aid.</p>