Do top students really need to "reach"?

Parents Forum
1

In the past several years as a member of the CC community, I’ve thought much about the reach/match/safety approach to college admissions. I’ve participated in debate and discussion about the relative merits of an “elite” education. I’ve seen posts that bemoan how some colleges game the rankings and others that extol the superiority of one ranking system over another based on the number assigned to their favorite college.

And, through it all, I’ve come to the conclusion that reach schools, as defined by top-whatever rankings or sub-10/15/20% admissions rates, have become fetishized by both parents and students. I, personally, see no reason why a student, even a student with “Ivy League-worthy stats” should necessarily feel the need to identify reach schools to apply to.

Arguing about the likelihood of becoming a Supreme Court Justice, Nobel Prize winner, or mega-billionaire coming from School X vs. School X+20 on the ranking du jour is irrelevant. Mainly because I’m betting few, if any, of us discussing the relative merits of CalTech vs. Harvard have kids in that rarified subset of students for whom that really is an issue. Even if their test scores and grades put them in the middle 50% of those schools. Heck, even if they are in the top quartile.

I have to say that, in retrospect, I’m glad my kid, whose stats were top-notch, chose a match rather than a reach for her ED ticket. I’m glad she focused more on fit than prestige when she was making her decision. And that she didn’t listen to me when I kept hinting that she could “do better.” Just because a student can get into a reach school does not mean that that he or she should go there. Giving bright kids the freedom to say “no” to their reaches can be a good thing, IME.

Is the idea of a “reach” school necessary or even relevant to students with “matches” that still afford an excellent education and that may be a better fit?

2

My kids swung for their reaches, and both made it in, which begs the question, were we too “pessimistic” in crafting our lists, which were not top-20-school-heavy - they were all over the top 40 uni and LAC lists based on what personally appealed to them. (I don’t think we were too pessimistic, but I think we were conservative and risk-averse, and I’m fine with that.)

But I think a lot of the decision whether a reach is worth swinging for is predicated upon the attitude that the student (and family) has. If you can approach applying to a reach school with a “sure, why not?” attitude, I think that’s one thing, and you treat it as the lottery ticket - a little dream and no harm / no foul if it doesn’t pay out. If it’s approached with a “OMG, I’ll just die if I don’t get into this reach school, and anything below is just so inferior,” then no.

3

I think there are so many factors that are relevant to your question that it’s too complicated to answer. Everybody will have their own opinion depending on their own circumstances.

It might be better to start out with a simpler hypothetical: suppose your child’s situation was the same as Mailia Obama’s but without the secret service and celebrity issues - they’re a good student, money is no object at all, and they are more or less guaranteed admittance to any school in the world. Where would your child attend? Would it be a “reach” or a “match” … which would win, and by how much? (The fact that your question presupposes the existences of “reaches” illustrates the issues).

I would answer this question first. Then you can add back in the practical constraints of money and the fact that students have to worry about where they can get in, ED vs RD, etc.

I might be wrong, but I bet that if you took a poll of people there would be 10 schools that would be a majority of the answers.

An economist would then propose this next step. Suppose you are guaranteed admission to every school in the world. What is the most that you would pay to attend your first choice? What would you pay to attend your second choice? So on, and so on. This puts a dollar value on how much better you think your first choice is relative to your second choice, etc.

4

Last year I chanced someone here on CC that a particular school was a reach. In March he came back and @ referenced me to say that I was wrong. He was admitted to that school. Some students don’t understand what “reach” means.

5

Somebody will probably come argue top kids have to go to tippy top schools for this reason or that. But the truth, to me, is the goal is to become empowered in various ways. I wince when I see some kids focusing on the admit chances for a very narrow list of “names” they know little about, beyond rep, and not the rest of what really makes for growth and the confidence to step forward, post-grad. (And not including PG in that, I’m sure you vetted in the right ways.)

“Fit” can include the right “stretch.” But just the ranking is so half-baked.

Congrats to your D for the savvy (and to you, too.)

6

If a kid has matches and safeties he is in love with and can afford, then no, he does not need reaches. “Go to the best school you can get into” is no truer than “Buy the biggest house you can afford.”

7

My youngest is a hs sr. His idea of a reach is a private university that he can only afford if it comes with nice scholarships. I don’t think he will have trouble gaining admissions to any of them. He also has 2 state schools on his radar. All good choices.

8

I don’t have a problem with “reach” schools if you go into it with a “what the heck, give it a shot” attitude (as Pizzagirl mentioned). Our D of course is like all the other kids, looking at extreme reaches. I don’t rain on her parade because she really needs to improve her study habits and attitude about HS. She, a junior, knows the high stats required to even have a chance at her reaches and that has gotten her moving this year. This will benefit her in college, regardless of where she goes.

If I was a kid these days I’d apply to an Ivy just to get the rejection notice … then pin it to my wall as a motivator.

9

I had two that did go for it with reaches…but my oldest is not the competitive type and literally applied to four safe colleges and was happy, satisfied and is advancing in his career so sometimes the personality leads the kid to their destiny. ironically this kid probably had the strongest stats and skills going into the process. I am more aligned probably with Pizza in that we let the kids compile their list and they just went for it. Number 2 did not get into his reachiest college and number 3 did get into his reachiest college.

10

My short answer (opinion) is “no.” I don’t think any student needs to go to someone else’s idea of the “best” school. I do think each student should think about what is “best” for himself or herself. My younger daughter applied to and was accepted by a few schools that were reaches for her (for anyone) but she did not attend any of them, despite financial aid comparable to what she received at the school she ended up attending, which was a match.

11

“Just because a student can get into a reach school does not mean that that he or she should go there. Giving bright kids the freedom to say “no” to their reaches can be a good thing, IME.”
I agree with this sentiment, but for kids who CAN get into the tip-top schools, but who end up choosing to go elsewhere for various utterly valid reasons- fit, affordability, etc, etc., I dont see a reason NOT apply to reaches, unless of course the student has absolutely no interest in them.

My DS applied to many top schools and was accepted by most of them- He ended up going to his “safety”
because he was unexpectedly offered a full merit scholarship that was too good to pass up .
If that had not happened then he would have gone to one of his reaches.

I also completely agree with this ,written by Pizzagirl :

"But I think a lot of the decision whether a reach is worth swinging for is predicated upon the attitude that the student (and family) has. If you can approach applying to a reach school with a “sure, why not?” attitude, I think that’s one thing, and you treat it as the lottery ticket - a little dream and no harm / no foul if it doesn’t pay out. If it’s approached with a “OMG, I’ll just die if I don’t get into this reach school, and anything below is just so inferior,” then no. "

12

Many kids WANT to go to their flagships, which are almost safeties (if not guaranteed admits). A classmate of my daughter’s always knew she was going to FSU… She was top 20 in the class and certainly could have applied to more challenging schools, but she knew what she wanted. I know a lot of kids who do not want to leave Colorado so will apply to CU and CSU, but no where else.

Both of my kids could have applied to schools that were a hundred point higher on USNWR but those weren’t the schools they wanted to attend. Both feel plenty challenged at their lowly schools. Students from both schools seem to get hired on a regular basis.

13

My D had no particular interest in going OOS. She’s very independent and it wasn’t that she didn’t want to be far away. I feel pretty confident that if she had fallen in love with a faraway school for some reason, she’d have had no issue with being far away. But for a long time it appeared she would go to our flagship, which was an auto-admit for her (with automatic scholarships as well).

She ended up liking an instate private a lot. It was a match for her, even a safety in terms of admission. She was interested in a particular program that required an audition/portfoliio. So that wasn’t a sure thing, even if admission to the school was. But she did get in and so far has no regrets. She is not at all competitive and would never be one to apply somewhere just to see if she could get in. Not judging those who are–I was one of those myself back in the day. It’s just not her.

She likes her school because it’s “chill.” She’s quite chill herself so I think it’s a fit :slight_smile:

14

I would not say that D had NO interest in the other schools on her short list, all of which ranged from “reachy” to “extremely reachy.” But the discussion came down to “if you had a choice between school B and the school you’re applying to, which would you choose?” When she said “match school,” I realized that I was the one stuck on the “go to the best school you can get into” mindset and defining “best” in terms of ranking or selectivity or prestigiousity. She was the one who was thinking about schools in a more holistic way according to criteria that were most important to her. Since this was an ED decision, I had a good idea that the school she applied to was where she was going to go. As things worked out, I am extremely happy she made that decision, for a variety of reasons. But I did have a couple of sleepless nights worrying 'bout how things might have been. And I really don’t think I should have.

15

It really just all depends on where you would like to attend. Make your list, fully inclusive, of your wish list of colleges/universities and then realistically evaluate the list.

Three years ago, in my daughter’s case, she had 13 schools that she would not mind attending. But they all broke down as reaches (8) or matches (5) based on her grades, stats, etc. To us, that was not a safe and practical approach, so she also identified 4 safeties as well. In the end, we let her apply to all 17. She then surprisingly faced 12 rejections… securing only one match admission. She attends there now.

She was a 3.98 uw gpa student with multiple APs, with solid ECs, with excellent essays and with scores in the 98th percentile on both the SAT and ACT. But… she was also an unhooked over-achieving white female applicant. These days, there are an overwhelming abundance of such applying to America’s top schools. Only Asians and Asian-Americans of both genders face a greater challenge in terms of college admissions these days.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with pursuing your dreams, but assume nothing. Being in the top 25th percentile for a school means very little unless that school also accepts more than 25% of its total # of applicants. Just keep in mind that these elite schools accepting 5%, 10%, 15% or 20% are also rejecting 95%, 90%, 85% and 80%. And with the raw application #s in the 10s of 1000s at most elite schools now, a rejection is likely unless you bring something extra to the equation. They are looking to create a diverse and well-rounded freshman class… so they are only going to accept so many of each type.

Male applicants are at a slight advantage these days, versus females, unless you are Asian or Asian-American. Legitimate URMs still are at an advantage. Being from the right state or area could also help - if it is under-represented. Being a legacy only offers an advantage at some schools, as many colleges are no longer factoring that in to the point they once did. Stellar athletes of course are still at an advantage.

The key thing is to realistically self-evaluate your chances and then assume nothing. If you are going to apply to 13, as my D2 is this cycle, then make it something like 5 reaches, 5 matches and 3 safeties. If possible, secure a quality admit to a program you would not mind attending Early. That could lessen the pressure and angst considerably and also limit the total # of applications necessary.

Do not find yourself in March or April without quality options.

Good luck to all applicants this cycle.

16

Lots of high income families go for match schools with great merit money.

The reach schools are great if you’re getting a discount. But it’s tough to rationalize a quarter of a million dollars fullpay for a bachelor’s degree which is pretty much a** commodity **nowadays.

17

Ellie writes ‘I realized that I was the one stuck on the “go to the best school you can get into” mindset and defining “best” in terms of ranking or selectivity or prestigiousity. She was the one who was thinking about schools in a more holistic way according to criteria that were most important to her.’

That is so true and so helpful for me right now to consider, as a parent helping D17 on her common app. She has a reach for ED1 and a match EA, and will be happy to go to either. And I’ve been suggesting schools ‘in between’ these 2 schools, and she hasn’t budged, and doesn’t need to. She has 2 good safeties just in case.

18

OP, how would you define a match school for a kid with top notch stats? Seems to me it is not the quality of the admitted students but simply the low admissions rate that causes people to call them “reaches”. Sure, there are many reasons a kid may prefer a lower ranked school. Our high school isn’t obsessed with top private schools, and it’s quite common for kids to just apply to a few of our publics. If you think about it, it’s a rather odd idea that suddenly at age 18, a kid should sever many of the day to day interactions they’ve had with their families and move 1000+ miles away to attend school.

My kid and I didn’t actually care what the admissions rate was at the schools she applied to. We did care whether the other students would be academic peers.

19

^Echoing what @mathyone said, of course, reaches are reaches for everyone. That being said, a student who is “reach”-possible may not be a match with her/his match schools. My kids were happier being with academic peers; My D started at a match/safety and felt very out of place in her enthusiasm for learning. Her “reach” transfer was a revelation. S got into a reach from the start, and, except for a couple semesters lost to his own demons, generally was happily challenged by his cohort. I think that’s important.

I teach at a safety/match school. In an early essay where the students all had to write about a reading on booksmarts/streetsmarts, to a man (or woman), all hailed “street smarts” cuz those “book larnin’” former classmates don’t know how to have fun. Not one student in four classes spoke out for any kind of affection for learning for its own sake. So yeah, I wanted my kids to be matched, and the socalled reaches (not HYPS level, but still) were where they found a home.

20

I define reach schools by admission rate and admission stat rather than ranking, although they usually go hand in hand. But for engineering schools, it is not always the case. At the end, my D decided to go to the in state flagship (a low match) with excellent engineering school than a “reach” school with similar ranking in engineering. As both are need met schools, the costs are about the same (although one is in state public and the other is a private). However, my D receives additional merit scholarships every year that replaced all loans making it cheaper.