<p>That's actually a good point (after all, we don't dispute that the Americans can call themselves Americans even though they are ethnic Europeans)</p>
<p>And before anyone jumps on me for semantics, let's remember something here: the Westphalian state system is based almost entirely on semantics, so it's important to hash it out.</p>
<p>wait.</p>
<p>username, did you suggest that singapore should be a part of china?</p>
<p>it's not exactly a provocative statement, just one completely devoid of logic. it makes just as much sense as claiming that canada should be belong to... new zealand.</p>
<p>taiwan - china's *****</p>
<p>no</p>
<p>but they might be in the future</p>
<p>NO NO NO NO NO NO NO !!</p>
<p>taiwan >> china, they're democratic and have a better economy plus they don't have 10% of their exports in illegal/bootlegged products. </p>
<p>they have the same culture (that's about it with the similarities), cuz taiwan is where chiang kaishek escaped to after the communism revolution / cultural revolution. basically the chinese people and the taiwanese people are the same, despite the chinese being educationally and culturally oppressed (which is the goal for the cultural revolution). YAY TAIWAN</p>
<p>and yeah! we have our own olympiad team =)</p>
<p>"Suppose Taiwan did actually become independent - it's economy would fall drastically because it won't have China to back it up. "
um, taiwan isn't dependent in any way on China. plus they ahve a better economy and industry, china is just screwed up because of tghe commies and the stupid/ignorant/oppressed people. </p>
<p>"Plus, it seems Taiwan's having a civil war with it's own "president" anyway."
whtf? i'm from taiwan and i've been there this summer...and i've never heard a single thing about this. and they are a democracy...is there any fact to prove otherwise?</p>
<p>"Most of Taiwan's residents come from mainland China, are ethnically Chinese, speak a dialect of Chinese, and have family members in mainland China."
most of taiwan's residents do come from china because taiwan was part of china when they weren't communist. most of them have relatives that came from china 100-200 years ago, tho, so they're not that closely related.</p>
<p>"The UN expelled the ROC from the UN and reinstated the PRC as the legitimate governing body of China. "
no they didn't, the taiwanese president backed out cuz he didn't want to be part of a group with China, whom he considered to be evil/communist. </p>
<p>"I don't consider Taiwan a part of China. They're less screwed up at the moment anyhow."
i agree</p>
<p>No.
I have a friend who would kill me if I did say anything like that. She very pro-Taiwan.
I think that's because she's from there.
But who am I to judge?</p>
<p>You are your own person to judge. You can have whatever opinions you want.</p>
<p>Oh. Wow.
My life is clearer to me now.
(:p This smiley was meant to take the edge off of the previous cutting sarcasm. I love smilies.)</p>
<p>Narcissa,</p>
<p>A few of your arguments are dubious. First off, I don't know that it's true that Taiwan has a better economy. By what measure? They're more advanced in some things, but it's pretty obvious that the PRC has advantages in the long run. </p>
<p>And let's not get too smug here about Taiwan's status as a "free" country. Remember that until recently, Taiwan was an autocracy at best.</p>
<p>but now it's a democracy. which is better than what you can say for china.</p>
<p>Yes, it is a democracy. However, that is probably despite the KMT, not because of it.</p>
<p>i know. i wasn't pro-KMT, i was pro-Taiwan</p>
<p>i think a more interesting question would be is hong kong a part of china? because hong kong people don't believe they are chinese... they think they are hong kongese</p>
<p>No.</p>
<p>1st of all, the fact that most Taiwanese today are of ethnic Han Chinese origin means little (most Aussies are of English/British descent and at one point, most Americans were as well).</p>
<p>2nd - Taiwan, historically, was never seen as part of the "Han China" and it wasn't until the Manchus conquered China was Taiwan incorporated into "China" (the Manchu Empire).</p>
<p>3rd - Prior to the Qing Dynasty incorporating Taiwan into their hold, the Dutch had a colonial presence on the island.</p>
<p>k&s,</p>
<p>European Australians and Americans aren't in the same shoes as the Taiwanese. Until 1949, Taiwan and Mainland China were governed by the same government. it really hasn't been that long since the separation took place. And by the way, they were never recognized as an independent country by the UN or any major powers in the world.</p>
<p>Your seond reason was also flawed. Before the Manchus ruled, the Ming dynesty already declared Taiwan to be part of China. And relating to the second point, the Dutch was defeated by the Ming dynasty and left Taiwan long ago. </p>
<p>Even back in the Song dynasty, the central government was aware of Taiwan and tried to establish control there. They failed, but the Ming dynasty succeeded.</p>
<p>^</p>
<p>Uhh, nice rewriting of history.</p>
<p>First of all, from 1895 to 1945, Japan ruled over Taiwan and there wasn't a real Chinese govt. btwn 1945 and 1949, since China was still undergoing a civil war.</p>
<p>Second, Australia didn't sever its constitutional ties w/ the UK until 1942 when it adopted the Statute of Westminster (only 7 years earlier).</p>
<p>Third, there have been many states which have declared their freedom in recent times (Estonia, Latvia, Georgia, Ukraine, all the various "-istans").</p>
<p>Fourth, the Ming NEVER declared Taiwan to be part of China (Taiwan never appeared on any Imperial maps until 1683, when China was under the rule of a Qinq Emperor).</p>
<p>Fifth, the Dutch weren't defeated by the Ming (at the time, the Ming were being defeated by the Manchus). The Dutch were expelled by a Chinese-Japanese warlord/pirate, Koxinga who ruled Taiwan for 20 yrs as a separate kingdom (Kingdom of Tungning).</p>
<p>Sixth, the Japanese were also aware of Taiwan and tried to establish control over the island as far back as 1592.</p>
<p>k&s,</p>
<p>Japan never ruled over greater China, only bits and pieces.</p>
<p>Oops - I meant Taiwan.</p>
<p>I think there's an issue here: WHAT is the key to declaring sovereignty?</p>
<p>In today's world, it DOESN'T necessarily matter if the Qing dynasty has a claim to a land. What matters is how the purveyors of the Westphalian state system see it: so in effect, the UN and the powerful nations.</p>
<p>As it stands, most of the Western countries are quiet about the issue so as not to provoke China. However, it's fairly clear that the US and Japan and other major powers continue to quietly support Taiwan as a separate entity. </p>
<p>Whether WE like it or not, this matters. Statehood, at least the way we've defined it today, is a clear evolution of the Westphalian ideal-- we should work from within that framework to understand what norms are governing Taiwan's future as a state.</p>