do you consider taiwan as part of china?

College Confidential Community
41

<p>k&s</p>

<p>Just because Japan occupied Taiwan for 50 years does not mean it wasn't part of China. It was under Japanese control because China lost it in a war but majority of the Chinese people have always considered it as part of their country, including both Chiang Kai-shek and Mao. Hong Kong was governed by the British for many more years, yet today it is part of China! </p>

<p>Australia didn't change the laws till 1942, but it had been in fact given much power to govern itself way before that. The federation was formed in 1901 and by the time they cut the ties with GB, the relationship between the two was nothing more than strategic partners.</p>

<p>I don't get why you pointed out that there are many more countries that have declared their so called freedom in recent years. Their experiences are irrelevant to the Taiwanese situation because they have different historical and cultural contexts.</p>

<p>Koxinga's father was a general of Ming dynasty and Koxinga himself pointed out that he used Taiwan as a base to organize resistance against the Manchus. The fact that Koxinga and his men considered themselves as loyalist to the Ming dynasty makes Taiwan as part of Ming and the country that defeated the Dutch. </p>

<p>Lastly, just because Japan tried to gain control, doesn't mean the Song dynasty did not try. They did, but they fail.</p>

42

<p>
[quote]
Just because Japan occupied Taiwan for 50 years does not mean it wasn't part of China. It was under Japanese control because China lost it in a war but majority of the Chinese people have always considered it as part of their country, including both Chiang Kai-shek and Mao. Hong Kong was governed by the British for many more years, yet today it is part of China!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uhh, Taiwan was only part of the Qing (Manchu) Empire.</p>

<p>You know, the “foreign barbarian usurpers” that Chiang, Mao and other Han Chinese Nationalists rose up against.</p>

<p>And the fact that the Brits gave back HK to China (despite having rights to HK in perpetuity by treaty) is exactly my point. The Chinese complain plenty about Western (or Japanese) Imperialism and yet, the PRC is one of the worst perpetrators of it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Australia didn't change the laws till 1942, but it had been in fact given much power to govern itself way before that. The federation was formed in 1901 and by the time they cut the ties with GB, the relationship between the two was nothing more than strategic partners.

[/quote]

Gee, less than half a century (that really dismisses my point).</p>

<p>
[quote]
I don't get why you pointed out that there are many more countries that have declared their so called freedom in recent years. Their experiences are irrelevant to the Taiwanese situation because they have different historical and cultural contexts.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, such things certainly apply to Tibet, Inner Mongolia, etc. – all regions (as well as Taiwan) which prior to the Manchu Empire were outside of “China proper” (the 15 administrative provinces of Han China). The PRC today is very much like the former Soviet Union.</p>

<p>And Australia, Canada, etc. still apply (half a century doesn’t make any difference).</p>

<p>
[quote]
Koxinga's father was a general of Ming dynasty and Koxinga himself pointed out that he used Taiwan as a base to organize resistance against the Manchus. The fact that Koxinga and his men considered themselves as loyalist to the Ming dynasty makes Taiwan as part of Ming and the country that defeated the Dutch.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uhh, Koxinga’s father, Zheng Zhilong, was more of a merchant-pirate/warlord who was initially allied w/ the Ming. He later **defected to the Qing<a href="he,%20being%20a%20pirate%20–%20was%20out%20for%20his%20own%20personal%20interests">/b</a> – which doesn’t make him out to be much of a Ming “loyalist”.</p>

43

<p>Koxinga is a loyalist and just because his father wasn't, does not erase what he has done for the Ming government.</p>

<p>As with Tibet, Inner Mongolia, and Taiwan (don't forget Mongolia which was also part of Qing), if we use your logic, then the U.S. should give back Mexico Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. Hack, America should not even exist at all since the Native Americans were the ones who lived here! </p>

<p>Lastly, the Chinese army could have taken Hong Kong back in 1949 but decided not to so they can keep a window to the Western countries. The so called "treaty" has ended by the time they took HK back and HK has been part of China even before Qing.</p>

<p>The only valid point that you might have is about Australia. I have to admit its situation is different from that of America. I'll give you a point on that.</p>

44

<p>who cares about history? anyways, taiwan is more like china than quebec is like canada. if quebec doesn't separate than taiwan should be china.</p>

<p>and i didn't say singapore should be apart of china. i just said it was more simliar to the rest of china than tibet is.</p>

45

<p>what happen to democracy/letting the people decide? america wanted to be independent of great britain--were they wrong? should we not have fault the revolution?? no taiwanese people want to be part of china. doesn't that count for anything</p>

46

<p>
[quote]
no taiwanese people want to be part of china

[/quote]
</p>

<p>that's so not true. All my taiwanese classmates (and there are quite a few. like a few hundred few) think that taiwan is china. except for one</p>

47

<p>sydyen09,
Your statement about Hong Kong is one of the the most ignorant statements I've seen on this board. Many of my relatives are from Hong Kong and they all consider themselves Chinese. I don't know anyone from Hong Kong that doesn't believe they are Chinese. I am from Shanghai and I am Shanghainese, but does that mean I am not Chinese?</p>

48

<p>Narcissa,
You are generalizing. Most people from Taiwan advocates keeping the status quo. The pro-Independence are the most vocal thats why you tend to hear more about them and also Western medias tend to be biased against mainland China. Even then, their leader Chen Shui-bian doesn't dare to declare independence. Finally, may I remind you that Taiwan IS the Republic of China.</p>

<p>Another point you brought up is letting other people decide to be separate or not. However, did the Union just let the Confederacy leave before the onset of the American Civil War? No country will just disintegrate themselves.</p>

49

<p>LazyAznBoy, I am on your side all the way man!</p>

50

<p>Narcissa,</p>

<p>The world stage is hardly democratic. Neither are the "rules" of the Westphalian system or international relations.</p>

<p>Guys, all of this discussion is moot unless framed properly. The important question is this: What does the international community think? It's fairly obvious that most within the international community have thrown their weight toward the PRC (out of convenience, conviction, or both.) </p>

<p>Is this fair? Not really. But the fact is that the world has, for the most part, declared the PRC "the winner."</p>

51

<p>lol i mean taiwanese people in taiwan.
i doubt that there are any taiwanese ppl in taiwan who want to be part of **communist **china</p>

52

<p>just a bit off topic: IK..is there a particular way to count Cafe threads?!</p>

53

<p>cafe threads count. posts don't.</p>

54

<p>oops....LOL...I actually meant Cafe POSTS! I know cafe threads DO count! ;)</p>

55

<p>i doubt it.</p>

56

<p>doubt what?!</p>

57

<p>Of course,taiwan is a part of china.the government there is stupid</p>

58

<p>Narcissa,</p>

<p>Actually, a fair amount of Taiwanese people (in general, not separating by ethnicity) have an interest in joining with the PRC under the right circumstances.</p>

<p>Money talks.</p>

59

<p>
[quote]
Koxinga is a loyalist and just because his father wasn't, does not erase what he has done for the Ming government.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uhh, the Koreans were Ming loyalists (i.e. – allies) – that doesn’t mean that Korea is a part of China.</p>

<p>And Koxinga was such a “loyalist” that he formed his own short-lived kingdom (btw, nice backtracking - since Koxinga's father wasn’t a loyalist – why bother bringing him up in the 1st place?).</p>

<p>
[quote]
As with Tibet, Inner Mongolia, and Taiwan (don't forget Mongolia which was also part of Qing), if we use your logic, then the U.S. should give back Mexico Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. Hack, America should not even exist at all since the Native Americans were the ones who lived here!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Not the same thing. </p>

<p>First of all, they were all part of a Manchu Empire and not Han Chinese (how convenient that the Han Nationalists portrayed the Manchu as foreign barbarians and then when they managed to rise to power – then laid claim to what was all part of the Manchu Empire).</p>

<p>Plus, the US and Mexico are both nations built on immigrants (including Chinese immigrants) which won independence from their former colonial masters. The US took territory that Mexico had claim to (from the previous Spanish claims), but were hardly a settled part of Mexico (which was why Mexico invited American settlers into Texas).</p>

<p>If anything, your argument about the US (much less Mexico) supports my position since it is very much similar to that of Taiwan (colonists who have claimed independence).</p>

<p>Plus, if we follow apply the same logic for Taiwan, Taiwan should revert back to the control of the native aborigines of Taiwan (and not be part of China).</p>

<p>
[quote]
Lastly, the Chinese army could have taken Hong Kong back in 1949 but decided not to so they can keep a window to the Western countries. The so called "treaty" has ended by the time they took HK back and HK has been part of China even before Qing.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Right – the Chinese could have taken the much superior UK military (the Chinese couldn’t even defeat the Japanese at that time).</p>

<p>And uhh, The Treaty of Nanking ceded HK to the Brits in ”perpetuity”.</p>

<p>The fact that HK was part of China before the Qing is exactly my point.</p>

<p>Taiwan, Inner (much less outer) Mongolia, Tibet and East Turkestan were not part of China prior to the Qing.</p>

<p>One CAN’T have it both ways.</p>

<p>
[quote]
who cares about history? anyways, taiwan is more like china than quebec is like canada. if quebec doesn't separate than taiwan should be china.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uhh, aren’t China’s claims built on the basis of distorted history?</p>

<p>And Quebec is definitely a part of Canada (just b/c the Quebec are of majority of French origin doesn’t make a difference - the majority ethnic group in the US are of those of German origin) since the people of Quebec VOTED to stay a part of Canada.</p>

60

<p>i'm reading everything here and this argument is getting a bit ridiculous. </p>

<p>okay, let me sum up this thread/this argument in general.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>people are arguing about things that they are really misinformed about, and making a lot of generizations and are basically making up facts to support whatever their argument is, including making up countries or history in order to support their point. </p></li>
<li><p>the chinese people think taiwan is a part of china. and the taiwanese people don't. basically.</p></li>
<li><p>the taiwanese government thinks that they're separate. they DO have their own functioning government that's doing quite well. it's not like all those provisional governments and fake governments that you find in the french revolution hahaha. the chinese government, obviously, thinks not. so china can continue drawing taiwan as part of their map, and taiwan will publish their own maps. everyone is happy.</p></li>
<li><p>few other countries think that taiwan is separate from china, cuz of many reasons. (some are closely tied with china economically.) a few countries recognize taiwan's government. yay. </p></li>
<li><p>china won't nuclear bomb taiwan cuz then it might erupt into WWIII and all, and then everything will be destroyed. then everyone would die, and nobody would be happy. and after everyone on the planet dies, there woudln't be anyone to trade with anymore.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>thus, everybody is happy (until they start arguing about this subject)</p>

<p>APART FROM THAT, there really isn't anything to argue about. everyone has opinions and nobody's opinions are more right, BUT there're no straight facts or anything that we can argue about. that's why most of the stuff posted here are wayyy twisted.</p>

<p><em>note to everyone</em> Taiwan's government isn't a dictatorship or fascist or nazi-ist or anything. they've been quite corrupt int the past, but they were still as democratic as they could be, seeing as their country was a bit messed up from wwii and the army was like destroyed. they have a president that people vote on, and they have freedom of speech and religion and political viewpoint and everything. a few decades ago they would've arrested you if you were communist, but that was the extent of that.........realy how different is that from the US during the cold war? we were arresting every possible "communist"--and what about now, when we're arresting and imprisoning ppl w/out trial for being "terrorists"? haha, think the crucible</p>