Does an undergraduate Ivy league offer more other schools?

Parents Forum
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<p>Five years out it’s not going to matter much where you got your undergraduate degree so prioritize what’s important to you and pick your college accordingly. No college will “get you a job” it might get you an interview and again if a particular college is heavily recruited by a certain company or industry and it’s a company or industry you want to work for…then THAT college is important regardless of name. If you’re going to grad school or med school you might pick a college because that college sends a high percentage off to grad or med school. Lots of reasons to pick a college that might not be HYP but then again when you list your priorities maybe it will be HYP…people are not all the same and it’s really not a good idea to make blanket general statements about any selective college.</p>

<p>And Sean that’s a weak statement…yes grad schools take students from the Ivy League they also typically take students in high percentages from the great flagships, the great LACs and the great regional universities but the OP is asking if job opportunities are greater with an undergrad degree from HYP or somewhere else. That’s a horse of a different color than grad school acceptance.</p>

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<p>Its not the beginning or end of your world, but if you are asking it if helps–the answer is yes. </p>

<p>Is it required for success? The answer is no. But we all need many things in this world to be successful–whether on our own terms, or in the corporate world in tandem with others – and it is just one more arrow in the quiver of life. Maybe you’ll use it/need it, maybe you won’t. But nice to have it just in case. And other arrows also work.</p>

<p>It can’t hurt, and it might help. And good luck with that if it becomes your goal.</p>

23

<p>Yale law school class of 2011 most heavily represented schools</p>

<p>Yale: 89
Harvard: 80
Stanford: 37
Princeton: 35
Brown: 22
Dartmouth: 18
Duke: 18
Columbia: 17</p>

<p>Wharton MBA class of 2011 most heavily represented schools</p>

<ol>
<li>University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA<br></li>
<li>Harvard University Boston, MA<br></li>
<li>Princeton University Princeton, NJ<br></li>
<li>Yale University New Haven, CT<br></li>
<li>Georgetown University Washington, D.C.<br></li>
<li>Stanford University Stanford, CA </li>
<li>Brown University Providence, RI</li>
<li>MIT Cambridge, MA<br></li>
<li>UC-Berkeley Berkeley, CA</li>
<li>Cornell University Ithaca, NY<br></li>
<li>Columbia University New York, NY<br></li>
<li>Dartmouth College Hanover, NH</li>
</ol>

<p>I could go on and on here. Ivies dominate both grad school admissions and the highest paying entry level jobs, which typically lead to the highest paying careers down the road. It isn’t a knock against any other school, prestigious LAC or a state flagship, it is simply in the numbers.</p>

<p>So keeping the discussion focused on job placement. Lets say that no one is concerned where you went to school 5 year’s after graduation (which is a rather short time frame that I disagree with) I bet they will be concerned with where you worked for the past 5 years which will be heavily determined but your undergraduate degree.</p>

<p>non-target kids make it to McKinsey and Goldman everyday. They are hustlers and are working much harder than the Harvard grad. Ivies open doors that a lot of students won’t put in the effort to open themselves which is why you see better placement with Ivies.</p>

24

<p>Sean, I cannot dispute your figures, since you did the research. :slight_smile: However, law school and business school are two of many directions, correct? When you look at particular academic graduate programs (Ph.D. programs), most of those, at any elite U, try (it appears) to select widely from all over the undergrad institutions – location-wise, public vs. private wise. There’s usually a wide representation.</p>

<p>Also, I know that Stanford business school selects from a wide variety of undergrad backgrounds & types of colleges, including the midwest, etc. </p>

<p>I can just name lots of examples. One recent one is a friend & colleague whose son graduated from a mid-level public, but did some outstanding work there & civic involvement (town-and-gown). He did some graduate work at Harvard and is now at Columbia grad school (in engineering). Ditto for a different student who recently went to a fairly “low”-level state U and then on to Princeton for graduate work.</p>

<p>Certainly if one’s career goals are narrowly focused on a prestigious law school (for valid reasons – no judgment here!), one wants to plan toward that direction, if possible.</p>

25

<p>

Something is amiss. That’s too many kids. Unless the size of the class has changed dramatically. :wink: </p>

<p>Only 205 matriculants this year. </p>

<p>Edit: The numbers above may be over all 3 years of classes, but not the 2011 class year. The numbers don’t jive. </p>

<p>Here’s the list of UG’s represented in this year’s entering class. </p>

<p>74 undergraduate institutions represented:<br>
American University </p>

<p>Bates College </p>

<p>Birmingham Southern College </p>

<p>Boston College </p>

<p>Boston University </p>

<p>Brandeis University </p>

<p>Brigham Young University </p>

<p>Brown University </p>

<p>California Institute of Technology </p>

<p>California State University-Long Beach</p>

<p>Carnegie Mellon University </p>

<p>Clemson University </p>

<p>Columbia University-Columbia College </p>

<p>Cornell University-NY </p>

<p>Dartmouth College </p>

<p>Duke University </p>

<p>Eastern University </p>

<p>Emory University </p>

<p>Florida State University </p>

<p>Georgetown University </p>

<p>Harvard University </p>

<p>Hillsdale College </p>

<p>Hunter College-CUNY </p>

<p>Johns Hopkins University </p>

<p>Louisiana State University-Baton Rouge </p>

<p>Massachusetts Institute of Technology</p>

<p>McGill University </p>

<p>Morehouse College </p>

<p>Northwestern University </p>

<p>NYU College of Arts & Sciences </p>

<p>Oberlin College </p>

<p>Ohio State University-Columbus </p>

<p>Ohio University </p>

<p>Patrick Henry College </p>

<p>Pomona College </p>

<p>Princeton University </p>

<p>Purdue University-West Lafayette </p>

<p>Reed College </p>

<p>Saint Peter’s College </p>

<p>Samford University </p>

<p>Scripps College </p>

<p>Seoul National University </p>

<p>Stanford University </p>

<p>Swarthmore College </p>

<p>Trinity College-CT </p>

<p>United States Air Force Academy </p>

<p>United States Naval Academy </p>

<p>University of Delaware </p>

<p>University of California-Berkeley </p>

<p>University of California-Los Angeles </p>

<p>University of California-Santa Barbara </p>

<p>University of Chicago </p>

<p>University of Georgia-Athens Y </p>

<p>University of Maryland-College Park </p>

<p>University of Massachusetts-Amherst </p>

<p>University of Miami </p>

<p>University of Michigan-Ann Arbor </p>

<p>University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill </p>

<p>University of Norte Dame </p>

<p>University of Pennsylvania </p>

<p>University of Pittsburgh </p>

<p>University of Rochester </p>

<p>University of Texas-Austin </p>

<p>University of Toronto </p>

<p>University of Virginia </p>

<p>University of Wales </p>

<p>University of Washington </p>

<p>Vanderbilt University </p>

<p>Vassar College </p>

<p>Washington and Lee University </p>

<p>Washington University </p>

<p>Wesleyan University </p>

<p>Williams College </p>

<p>Yale University</p>

<p>Here ya go. <a href=“http://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/profile.htm[/url]”>http://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/profile.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I apologize for the incorrect figures… the point I was try to get across is better suited to % representation by each school. If you break down the class by % of students per school it will be skewed to towards the ivies.</p>

<p>I wont even begin to comment on the academic real that is far beyond me and I know little to nothing about it. </p>

<p>What I do know is that everyday we here a stories about kids from no name institutions (or no formal education at all) rise to become captains of industry or path blazers in their field. Hell Goldman’s CEO for almost 2 decades started out as a janitor there.</p>

<p>Prestigious schools just happen to make it easier. It is most likely a self fulfilling prophecy anyway typically the kids who work the hardest end up at these schools and since they are hard workers they are going to go far in life. </p>

<p>I don’t want to sound discouraging because I would prefer a kid from Podunk U with a chip on his shoulder over Mr. Elitest anyway. But when you put hundreds of families comprised of Elitest’s in one room (the room in this scenario is the ivy league) they tend to get **** done. harvards freshman class and send them to the lowest ranked school in the country and the end result if their careers will arguably be similar.</p>

<p>Sent from my DROIDX using CC App</p>

27

<p>

</p>

<p>And there’s the key–it becomes a “chicken or the egg” question as far as post-grad success is concerned in most all areas. There are lots of reasons to go to an Ivy or other name-brand school if you have the opportunity and it is affordable: they have the greatest financial resources and per-student spending, and strongest overall student bodies resulting in highly engaged classmates, but prestige is really just a bonus that should be a low priority.</p>

28

<p>Figures given fail to control for two related but different phenomena:</p>

<p>a) The students at the most heavily represented schools are likely to be better standardized test takers and</p>

<p>b) The students who are admitted to the Ivies et. al. are the most able high school students in the country and therefore would be far more likely to excel at (for example) flagship state universities and thus would be more likely to have been admitted even if they had attended those universities.</p>

29

<p>There is plenty of life outside the Ivys, including advanced degrees. There are plenty of places to get as good an education. In fact, for some another school may offer more. </p>

<p>Post #28 is in eror when it states that the Ivy students are the most able in the country. They represent only a fraction of the best HS students, or college students in any field, for college students. They do not admit the top x students in the country leaving the rest for other schools. Not all of the best students even want to attend an Ivy and they are more holistic than just numbers driven in their admissions.</p>

<p>The advantage of a small top college such as one in the Ivy league for sports is that the entire student body is likely to be well above most college students in ability. This does not mean students of equal ability can’t be found elsewhere in sufficient numbers to form a solid academic peer group. It also doesn’t mean only the best professors teach at Ivy league schools.</p>

<p>It is unfortunate that many of the east coast public flagship schools don’t seem to rank as highly as their counterparts in other parts of the country.</p>

30

<p>Out here, Ivy schools are mostly known as places students get rejected from. From the Ivies’ point of view, it is a good strategy, as it actually enhances their reputations more than if they accepted applicants, because when they accept applicants from out here, they never come back, and so the graduates have no reputation at all. </p>

<p>As for graduate school outside of business/law, etc., I only have one data point. My d. has a fellowship at Princeton. In her department, they haven’t accepted an Ivy applicant in five years (and they’ve had dozens, including ones from P. itself). And only one faculty member went to an Ivy undergrad.</p>

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<p>JM$.02, </p>

<p>If you want to be taught by teaching assistants by all means go to an Ivy. If you want to be taught by Professors you’d be better off at a small LAC.</p>

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<p>^ In response to the above. If you want to be taught by some world reknown Professors and researchers attend Ivy’s and the like, also if you want to be taught by some of the best teaching assistants involved in some of the most interesting research hoping to make a career in academia than my all means attend an Ivy or like school.</p>

33

<p>My son graduated from Harvard in May and I tell him that his Ivy credentials means that people assume he’s smart & capable until he proves that he is an idiot. Whereas kids who go to “normal schools” are considered to be good, solid people until they prove that they are very smart & capable. He chuckles and agrees.</p>

<p>Regarding the original topic of this thread “Does an undergraduate Ivy league offer more (than) other schools?” Fortunately or unfortunately, I have to say “Yes”.</p>

<p>Offering “more” doesn’t mean “better in all cases”, it just means “more”. The Ivies aren’t all the same but for the most part they have deeper resources, better academic support systems, more interesting & diverse people (faculty, grad students and peers), and of course the advantages mentioned earlier in this thread about name recognition allowing grads to get their foot in the door for jobs & grad school.</p>

<p>One the flip side, I think the Ivies (or at least Harvard) contain many more mentally unbalanced extreme personalities, and brutal competition than most schools.</p>

<p>Do I think this means that Ivies offer a better education experience for all students who qualify to get into them? Absolutely not! They just offer MORE of everything.</p>

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<p>BTW, after I “posted” the above reply I realized that I forgot to mention that I also have a daughter who is a sophomore at Boston College and that we live in the a Boston suburb so I spend alot of time at both Harvard and Boston College so when I express my opinion about what Ivies have to offer I am doing so with my daughter’s Boston College current experiences fresh in mind. The college experience between those two schools is so different it’s like they are on different planets which makes the challenge of finding the right college “fit” college applicants very, very real.</p>

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<p>One down</p>

<p>I would be interested in hearing more details on how the two schools are different.</p>

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<p>Regarding your request… “I would be interested in hearing more details on how the two schools are different”…oh boy…this is going to be difficult and dangerous because I can only speak in generalities in a tiny CC post and I will touch alot of nerves given how strongly people feel about different types of schools.</p>

<p>First some background…we are a middle class family who had no prior experience with Ivy league schools, our kids went to a plain vanilla public high school, neither is an athlete or has any unique talent. When I speak of Ivies I am really talking about Harvard as that is my only frame of reference. And for “normal schools” I am talking about Boston College. </p>

<p>OK, first the students. Watch this video ( [Iced</a> T (OHT Ep. 8 Season 5) - YouTube](<a href=“- YouTube”>- YouTube) ) of an ON HARVARD TIME episode and imagine you or your kid going to school and living 24/7 with people like that - very creative, very smart, very high energy, unaware of boundaries, ruthless but in a polite “you’ll never know what hit you” way - NOT ALWAYS EASY PEOPLE TO LIVE WITH. That is what the typical Harvard student is like.
Switch to Boston College and you’ll find a very homogeneous, very white upper middle class student body, lots of pretty girls in flip flops and short skirts counting down the hours to Thursday night so they can put on their high heels, take the subway into Boston and start their weekend. (Oh boy, I am going to get into lots of trouble for what I just said). Talk to a Harvard student and they seem quirky, odd, different. When my daughter meets my son’s classmates she often says to me later “Are they all weird?” She refused to even apply to Harvard, she want no part of them. Boston College students seem like the average kids in the top third of any high school - nice, sorta smart, kinda hard working.</p>

<p>Housing - seems like this should be insignificant but Harvard and Yale are unique in that they have a “House system”. All undergraduates live on campus. All Harvard freshmen (and only Harvard freshmen) live in the thousand year old dorms in Harvard Yard. My son lived in a fifth floor room with no a/c, no windows (just a skylight) and a gabled ceiling on which I smashed my head every time I walked into the room. But after freshman year the Housing system really separates Harvard and Yale from every other college as it allows the academics to be more intense and the Ivy connection/networking advantage to begin. The 12 Harvard house are self contained communities to which a student is randomly assigned to live in for the rest of their three years. There are no RA’s in Harvard Houses, there is a House Master, a senior faculty member who lives in the House with their family. There is also a Resident Dean who runs the house/provides counseling and there are House Tutors whose job it is to provide academic support. Tutors staff “tables” in the evenings - usually in the House dining room (each house has its own). There will be a “quant table” for the maths & physics kids, a biology and/or chemistry table for those kids, even a writing table. Tutors are mostly Harvard PhD’s or senior PhD students who work or do research during the day and are paid/given free housing to help the students at night. Why does his matter? Because the Harvard academics can be that much more rigourous when the school provides House Tutors to help these already very bright kids do their work. There is nothing comparable at BC, they have RA’s who will unlock your door if you forget your key. The HouseMasters (in this very Harry Potter-like world) are connected, very well regarded people. During my son’s sophomore year his House Master was a Nobel prize winner who he could eat dinner with. That gentleman and his wife retired from being the House Master (after 15 years) and was replaced by a professor who happened to have a 100+ week NYTImes best seller book and had just given his first TED Talk. It is your House Master and Resident Dean that write recommendations to law, medical and grad school, they know each student way better than a faculty advisor could. They can also make phone calls to get students jobs or internships in Harvard research labs or outside the Harvard bubble. This is where the subtle, not talked about too much “networking” advantage of the Ivy league begins. So the Harvard kids are living with very accomplished, very smart older people - my daughter at BC will have nothing even close to that.</p>

<p>I have to go to work now so I’ll stop here and give people a chance to flame me. Take care…</p>

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<p>I think OneDown&OnetoGo captures Harvard very well. Our kid graduated there last May. He went off to Harvard pretty full of himself, came home first winter break with self esteem in the basement, then gradually came to terms with the reality that he was going to be pretty average there. Just that experience, I think, is what made going to Harvard invaluable. It humbles you . . . and it gives you tremendous confidence, if that makes sense. No doubt other schools like Yale and Princeton do the same. </p>

<p>Son worked on that episode of OHT, btw. I get a kick out of watching the episodes on youtube.</p>

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<p>My honest opinion. I know there are really intelligent and creative students at Harvard. The best of the best.</p>

<p>But I find that video completely unimpressive. Sincerely. Mediocre street theater with a little technology thrown in is how I would classify it. I’m sure others found it masterful, but somebody posted it and I’m reacting honestly. Would a similar production be much worse elsewhere? Maybe. But it still comes across as amateurish to me. And those anchors really bug me - like they’re trying too hard.</p>

<p>One man’s opinion. Maybe I’m just too normal to understand such erudite humorists. And I’ll admit I’m not sure anyone is really claiming it to be a work of creative genius. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, I still wish I could’ve gone to a school like Harvard for all the other reasons listed. But not many people can, and I’m doing okay.</p>

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<p>I couldn’t watch the video for more than three minutes. It was painful. Trying too hard to be cool or whatever. Ick.</p>

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<p>It’s been linked on other threads but here is a video made by two graduating seniors that captures their feeling for Cornell [This</a> Is on Vimeo](<a href=“http://vimeo.com/23897683]This”>http://vimeo.com/23897683)</p>