Does anyone else think the USPM program at WUSTL is Ridiculous?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Washington University in St. Louis
1

<p>I mean seriously these are the requirments to get guaranteed acceptance:</p>

<li>maintain a **3.8 grade point average (GPA) **as an undergraduate student</li>
<li>complete an application to the School of Medicine the year before entering medical studies</li>
<li>achieve a **total score of 36 on the Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) **</li>
<li>complete a successful interview with the School of Medicine’s Committee on Admissions.</li>
</ol>

<p>I mean other BS/MD programs have GPA requirements of at least a 3.3. 3.8 is ridiculous hard to maintain, especially with pre-med courses at top schools.
You have to have a 36 MCAT score to get accepted!!! I mean seriously, you pretty can go to any med school you want with that (ok so Harvard and JHU are a maybe but you can even go out of country). Plus you have to waste your time studying for the MCAT rather than volunteering at hospitals, something that BS/MD degree is for (they want to take the worries of MCAT off and want you to use the time to get experience with medicine). Most BS/MD schools don’t even require the MCAT if you are accepted into their program and maintain good GPA.
You have to complete a successful interview, most BS/MD degrees have interviews during your senior year before you are accepted to the college. The interviews at WUSTL are like traditional med school interviews, aka they are much harder and they nail you intensely.
All I can say is that if you have a 3.8 GPA, 36 MCAT, and a successful interview, you pretty much don’t have even be in this program to get accepted into their med school. This kinda makes their program obsolete and ridiculously hard to accomplish. I mean 36 MACT is (I believe) in the 97th percentile. I think that is ridiculous that they want people to get that score just so they can have guaranteed admissions into their school, with that score, you can go anywhere you really want.</p>

2

<p>Agreed. With those scores you could go to med school just about anywhere. Plus WUSTL gets eight years of private school tuition and fees from you. Nice gig – for THEM!</p>

3

<p>Oh and other BS/MD programs (Brown, Rice, Northwestern) don’t require you to have to complete a med school applications.</p>

<p>This is seriously more of what any undergraduate have to do if they want to get into their med school, not just the people in the program</p>

4

<p>I don’t think it’s that ridiculous. A 3.8 and 36 from outside of the program doesn’t guarantee an acceptance at WUSTL’s med school. From within the program, it does.</p>

5

<p>While it may be insane, star_s does have a point. WUSTL’s med school is the most selective in the country- more so than Harvard and JHU (although not higher ranked).</p>

<p>I’m just glad I’ve never been or wanted to be pre-med. A decent job in my field certainly doesn’t require a 3.8- thank god I don’t need to deal with that stress.</p>

6

<p>That is difficult. For Northwestern’s HPME you don’t even have to take the MCAT!</p>

7

<p>There are TONS of pre-meds who have a 36 MCAT and 3.8 GPA that are rejected from most schools they apply to. Almost any one of those premeds would kill to have guaranteed acceptance to one of the best medical schools in the country with stats like that. WashU clearly wants to send two messages: 1) Their medical school is not going to lower their standards just for you. They are still one of the most selective med schools in the world. 2) They don’t want their students to slack. It’s understandable that a student would rather volunteer and do research, but think about all the other premeds who maintain a 3.8+ gpa, have a 36+ MCAT, and still manage time for research and volunteering. If you’re smart enough to be accepted as a University Scholar, a 3.8 should be quite easy to maintain.</p>

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<p>nooob - Agree with what you say except the very last. A 3.8 is never QUITE EASY to maintain at schools like Wash U except for maybe like 0.000001% of the population. Even really smart people have to work at least somewhat diligently for that GPA.</p>

9

<p>If you look at JHU’s average GPA of students accepted to Med school (including top med schools), it is around 3.5
Duke is just as high as that.
I would be amazed if you can “easily” obtain a 3.8 at Harvard especially in science.
JHU student’s get around 3.5, but they accepted to many top med schools like Washington U and Duke Med. Does that mean they aren’t smart? JHU’s pre-med population is actually quite low, it’s because it is so hard to do well in pre-med there, they have grade deflation (the curves). Sure they are selective but my true question is: what is the retention rate on that program? HPME and Brown’s </p>

<p>“There are TONS of pre-meds who have a 36 MCAT and 3.8 GPA that are rejected from most schools they apply to.”
yes there might be tons of rejected pre-med that are like that BUT the true question also comes down to how many premed have that kind of stats at top schools like Duke, JHU, WUSTL, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Rice, MIT, Caltech etc.
I mean go to Princeton, I doubt you can “easily” maintain an A, especially a 3.8 GPA. Princeton’s grade deflation policy is extremely strict, they say that around 35% of students get A’s but that is only on a test, not always in the class. I believe 20% or less even have a 3.8 GPA at Princeton, does that mean that those student’s are not smart enough to get into WUSTL? no I don’t think so, I think some are just as smart as the people in the USPM.
For me, it is not worth it trying to work my butt off to get a 3.8 GPA at WUSTL and not have any time to do any EC such as volunteering and research just so I can go to their med school. I would rather have more medical experience so when I go interview, I would sound much more interested in medicine because of my experience, not because I have been studying. And I highly doubt that the smartest kids can even pull off a 3.8 GPA (including the science classes) and 36 MCAT “easily” and without studying for a long time, and especially while preparing for the interviews along with volunteering at Washington U. And that goes for all top schools.
Also, WUSTL do reject many undergrad applications that they think will be accepted into better schools like HYPSM. This takes out some of the smartest kids because they want to maintain their enrollment. In other words, they reject applications that they think will not select their school because they believe that the applicant (the extremely smart kids who won many national award) will be accepted into HYPSM. This pretty much means that the students accepted will not be like those at HYPSM since they eliminated ones that they think will be accepted at HYPSM, thus meaning that there won’t be a lot of students that are “the best of the best” at their school when compared to HYPSM so the number of students that can “easily” maintain a 3.8 (which in the first place is difficult for almost everyone) are reduced.
Simple to say, I really believe that trying to maintain a 3.8 GPA at WUSTL is extremely tough, for even the 4.0 GPA high school students. </p>

<p>“A 3.8 and 36 from outside of the program doesn’t guarantee an acceptance at WUSTL’s med school. From within the program, it does.”</p>

<p>Yes I agree, but again the true question is, how easy would it be to maintain a 3.8 GPA at WUSTL, especially with the science courses and the need for volunteering and research? Thus “what really is the retention/success rate of the people accepted into the program”?</p>

10

<p>
[QUOTE=cdz512]

Yes I agree, but again the true question is, how easy would it be to maintain a 3.8 GPA at WUSTL, especially with the science courses and the need for volunteering and research?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I’m betting that’s kind of the point… it’s not easy. If the Med school were ranked 12th and the undergraduate program were ranked 3rd nationwide (to flip-flop things) maybe it would make sense for acceptance to Undergrad to be a huge boon to getting into the med school. As it is, they’re giving students something to work towards, and preparing them (in the process) to attend any other great med school out there if they don’t get into WashU’s program.</p>

<p>WashU might not want it’s pre-med program to be flooded with people who are only there because they think it’ll guarantee them acceptance into the med school, although I could be wrong…</p>

11

<p>

</p>

<p>Prove it. People like to complain about over-qualified candidates being rejected from WUSTL, but there really is no such thing as an over-qualified candidate (until some 18 year old cures cancer and gets rejected).
That is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have heard all day. There are plenty of students at WashU who have turned down HYPSM, as well as plenty who didn’t even apply (for whatever reason- weather, school department, you name it).</p>

<p>I’ll agree with you on this much though, a 3.8 at WashU is pretty damn difficult.</p>

12

<p>Johnson,
I heard that from somebody else, so I don’t know. To tell you the truth, I don’t follow WUSTL as much as a couple other school.</p>

13

<p>“WashU might not want it’s pre-med program to be flooded with people who are only there because they think it’ll guarantee them acceptance into the med school, although I could be wrong…”</p>

<p>I don’t know either but I think they should think about if their requirements is really obtainable by the accepted students.</p>

14

<p>^I have no statistics, but I’m fairly certain that those who are accepted to USPM do maintain those requirements for the most part (assuming they still want to go to med school- plenty of pre-meds change their mind).</p>

15

<p>Certainly does not seem to be a problem to get more than sufficient applicants for either the USPM or the WashU medical school, so why change? If it is not the right fit for you, then the best solution is to not apply.</p>

16

<p>I never said I wanted to apply, given that I’m not even going to WUSTL. WUSTL isn’t a fit for me really, I just can’t find the connection to that school as other schools (maybe because I don’t like St. Louis and my knowledge of WashU is not that much). Also I never said that they should change their program. I just think that the goals are a little too ambitious. However, I do believe WUSTL is a wonderful and tremendous school (and I really mean it) and that it is just as good as the top schools in the nation. I do like their academics but I just don’t think it is much of a fit for me. I have many friend who attend and would like to attend. I do believe it is a wonderful school, but it just doesn’t fit me.
Now back to the topic.
Again I never said that they should change their programs (and there has not been any implications about that), I just said that their requirements makes their program more obsolete because they still make the student study hard and feel stressed about MCAT and Med school applications. If you look at Brown’s, Northestern’s and Rice/Baylor, all tremendous school (which I would say IMO is equal in greatness to WashU because it is so difficult to rank one higher than another and because the graduates really aren’t that superior to another), their program was made so that if you don’t have to worrying about using your time to study really hard for the MCAT. The other programs also wanted you to be able to explore the subject you are interested in, and not have to be restricted to trying to find a major that will help you with med school admittance and the MCAT, I mean I have talked to students who study the major they really enjoy like psychology, journalism and other interest while still maintaining their main interest of medicine. Students could even study aboard for length amount of time in the field they like rather than having to study for the MCAT or worrying about med school acceptance. Also those programs allow them to have more time to volunteer and research and get up close experience with medicine while taking the stress of studying and the burden of the MCAT off their shoulders. Another benefit of the off time is that they are able to enjoy college fully and the freedom it brings rather than worrying much about their grades and MCAT, they can explore what they really want, if it is research, or study abroad. As long as they fulfill the GPA requirement, which is around a 3.4-3.5 and take the required courses along with volunteering and research, they are accepted to their med school. </p>

<p>I mean look at the HPME website it states:
The HPME fosters flexibility and creativity in the undergraduate education while reducing the pressures related to gaining acceptance to medical school. Students are encouraged to take advantage of the reduced pressure by exploring and challenging themselves personally and professionally to prepare a solid foundation for success in medical school and for leadership roles in their careers in medicine.</p>

<p>Rice Baylor
“There is absolutely no requirement to major in a certain field. Students are encouraged to pursue a broad academic curriculum, and many take full advantage of that opportunity.”</p>

<p>Brown’s PLME says:
The PLME encourages students of medicine **to pursue in depth their interests in the humanities, social sciences, and natural sciences **even as they prepare for their careers as physicians.</p>

<p>Pretty much what all of these program implies that they would like students to use their time to experience their second interest other than Medicine. They want to take their worries about the MCAT away. This I believe should be the true mission of these programs (and no I don’t mean that WashU should change theirs). But I do believe in my opinion this is what BS/MD programs are suppose to be about, allowing students to experience another interest other than medicine and encourage people to take advantage of their time and volunteer and research. </p>

<p>Now this comment truly comes in my opinion and in no way to imply condemnation towards any med school but I really doubt that you can say with confidence that WUSTL’s med school is a lot better or worse than the other top schools (in ranking). I just can’t really see how they can definitely rank WUSTL above Duke, or Stanford or UM. I also can’t see how they can definitely rank JHU and Harvard better than WUSTL and the other top schools. To tell you the truth I would say that the top 25 med schools are pretty much equal in prestige. In other words, I would say that WashU’s med school is just as good as JHU, Harvard, Duke, Baylor and Brown. Not one is truly superior than he other. I don’t think job search after graduation from anyone of them is not going to be a challenge at all and I believe all of the graduates can find jobs easily.Again my opinion and I don’t mean in anyways to “put down” any one of the med schools. I just think that the 25 med schools are pretty much equal in strength and if there any one of them is really much better than the other, the difference is very small and difficult to detect.</p>

17

<p>I just wanted to share my opinion on the program, I don’t want this thread to become a full debate. But I do encourage people to share their opinions, even if it differs.
Again I’m not saying anything about changing their program or about me applying to it ST2.
My main point is that their program causes a lot of stress for the students who, under other similar programs, are able to enjoy their college life while getting professional experience by using the large amount of time that is required to study for the MCAT to instead, volunteer and research and experience medicine on a much direct bases. I think WashU’s program doesn’t take much stress off the students at all and I actually believe that the GPA would cause more stress.</p>

18

<p>cdz512 - I think you are either being a bit defensive (understandable given the responses), disingenuous, or a bit of both. What I mean is of course you think it would be better if Wash U changed their program if you believe everything else you said. Specifically it sounds like you think they should lower the GPA one needs to maintain, and possibly you also think they should eliminate needing to take the MCAT, but especially you stressed the former. There is nothing wrong with having that opinion, and you made some very valid and persuasive points in citing the other universities’ statements. Perhaps indeed it is something Wash U should consider, and it certainly at least is a highly legitimate point to debate. Maybe Wash U doesn’t think those things you cited are as important, and if so they should defend that position (if this were an actual debate). Anyway, don’t back down when you think you have a solid case.</p>

19

<p>But people <em>do</em> get their guaranteed rides into the med school, so it is attainable… It’s just a lot of work, as it is probably meant to be. If they’re going to hand out “get into medschool free” cards, and then stop considering the MCAT and lower GPA requirements, then how are they supposed to decide who gets the ticket? The med school just can’t offer every competent WashU premed a spot, that’s the problem. I’m not premed and I don’t know what HPME or PLME stand for, but however much they want you to not stress over the MCAT, they still want some way to compare you to other students, and scores are pretty important to that end, although there are definitely other ways to make yourself stand out as well.</p>

<p>Herego, as long as the USPM program is handing out guaranteed acceptances, those acceptances shouldn’t be some sort of “shortcut” that will help pre-med students who couldn’t have made it in otherwise. It just makes the process a little less stressful, since you know exactly what you have to do, and I don’t think that’s “ridiculous,” personally… Just me though.</p>

20

<p>Don Q - If I understand the program correctly, then I think you misunderstand it a bit. Undergrads have to be part of this program from the beginning of their freshman year, so only a small select group are subject to these stringent requirements. So it is not at all a “get into Med School free card” for all premeds, it does not apply to those not in the USPM program. In other words, a premed not in the program that maintains a 3.8 might get into med school or might not, but it has nothing to do with this discussion. If you lowered the GPA requirement for the program to 3.6, it still would have zero impact on anyone not in the program. It is only those in the USPM program that this applies to.</p>

<p>So yes, it is attainable, and yes, it is a lot of work. I think cdz’s point is that it might be so much work to stay qualified that other, very important aspects of undergraduate life and life in general, things that might indeed help develop important qualities in a doctor, could get the short end of the stick, so to speak. Again, I think that might be a valid point and certainly one worth considering, and apparently so do these other very highly regarded schools he cites.</p>