<p>GLOBALTRAVELER: That’s not true. Government agencies can’t set their own rates, ultimately it comes from Congress. Intel agencies have their own pay systems, but entry-level salaries aren’t that much different.</p>
<p>Citan…</p>
<p>Contract man…go contracting. I did say that the “Fort Meaders” SAID that they get paid higher. I guess there are some liars there.</p>
<p>GLOBALTRAVELER: Contracters at NSA do get paid a lot more than govies, but contracting life can be shaky. From my experience, at my place there are a lot more contractors who want to convert to government positions than other way around. Actually, I haven’t met a single person who wants to go back to the contracting world after being in government. The pay is less, but federal jobs have other perks. (Read: JOB SECURITY!!!). Plus, government workers usually have more power over contractors ;)</p>
<p>Anyway, for those wanting to apply to DoD (and Intel agencies) here are some pearls of wisdom from my experience. </p>
<p>DoD is hiring. Average age of workers at my place is 45-50, so basically I am surrounded by a lot of old guys. These guys will retire in a few years so this should change, hence the increased hiring. I really like working at this place. The atmosphere is laid back and people are very friendly and helpful. There’s no dress code and my branch head actually dresses sloppier than I do 
We work primarily with the Military, Intel agencies and defense contractors, so along the way you make a lot of good connections which becomes useful if you decide to join the contracting world later.</p>
<p>Some advice for people wanting to get into DoD. APPLY EARLY. I can’t stress this enough. The hiring system is painfully slow and since you need a clearance to begin work, it takes additional time. Now, for most DoD agencies they start out new grads with a Secret, which is pretty easy to get. You basically have to be a US citizen w/o bad marks on your record. If you apply to any of these agencies where the lowest level of clearance you need is Secret, apply 6-9 months prior to graduation.</p>
<p>However, if you want to go for Intel agencies apply at least a year before just to be safe, and especially if you have some foreign background. You can’t work at Intel agencies without getting a TS/SCI. Here’s how it works for getting into Intel agencies:</p>
<p>1) You pass the interview and get a CJO (Conditional job offer). Don’t treat this as a guaranteed job, however, and keep looking for other work because getting through the security process is TOUGH. There’s no guarantee that your process will end right before you graduate and/or if your position will still exist (remember, it can take a year or more!) and I have heard it take more than a year for a lot of people although, it’s getting better. It also depends a lot on funding from DoD.</p>
<p>2) Anyway, if you get a CJO you are basically told to fill out a lot of forms. For example, the NSA makes you fill out ALL of these: [Security</a> Forms Download Page - NSA/CSS](<a href=“http://www.nsa.gov/careers/forms/security_inst.shtml]Security”>http://www.nsa.gov/careers/forms/security_inst.shtml)</p>
<p>3) Then after months of waiting (paperwork processing), you get the call about your Background Investigation (BI) process. Here you go through a series of interviews with security officers contracted by the agency. They talk to you, your friends, coworkers, professors, neighbors to verify that the information on the forms you filled out is correct. Any discrepancies here (for example, your friend says that you have a drinking problem while you said in your form that you never drink) and say goodbye to the job. Don’t have a drinking problem, don’t have any close ties to foreign nationals (if your hot girlfriend is a Chinese international student…it MIGHT be a problem), don’t have credit card debt. etc. These are red flags in their eyes. Basically they want to weed out potential sources of blackmail.</p>
<p>4) While you are going through the BI process you also have to take a polygraph and psychological tests. The type of polygraph examination depends on the agency. NSA for example, makes you take the fullscope poly (which is a combination of lifestyle and counterintelligence polys). Basically, you HAVE to pass the poly to get the job. Even if your record is spotless, if you fail the poly you are out!</p>
<p>5) After you get through all this begins the adjudication process where the adjudication officer looks at your record and says YES or NO. And then, you get the job. Congratulations? Oh, btw you have to go through reinvestingation (yep, you get to go through the entire process again!) and polygraph every 5 years to keep a TS/SCI…if you fail any of these, yes you are gone.</p>
<p>Obviously, the process depends on the agency. For example, FBI makes you go through physical tests as well.</p>
<p>Anyway, I hope this was helpful :(</p>
<p>@Citran…</p>
<p>What I am about to say may rub some govies the wrong way but at the No Such Agency, the contractors do the majority of the work. There are WHOLE contracts with 90% contractors as the staff.</p>
<p>Yes Govies get the job-security and perks but unfortunately this may lead to a little complacency. The contractors are the ones who will be…</p>
<ul>
<li>Getting the certifications</li>
<li>Stay up on the latest technology trends</li>
<li>Going in and out of Borders book store getting new books and studying them</li>
<li>Enforcing some of the private-industry best practices in the INTEL sector</li>
</ul>
<p>Now maybe things are different in other DoD shops, but here in Fort Meade…contractors do the work.</p>
<p>Having said all of that…for my last 5 years of work, I will go government to get the benefits of the No Such Agency…provided that they won’t change the qualification rules by then.</p>
<p>GLOBALTRAVELER: Yes, but the pendulum is swinging to the government side. If you didn’t notice, the DOD is concerned about spending and at my place a lot of work is actually being (or will be) done in house now, which is why DoD has increased college level hiring. And since you are at NSA you might have noticed the increased hiring as well. Last time I was there, they were bringing in bus loads of college candidates.</p>
<p>Sorry to say, my impression is that govies here work harder than the contractors. The contractors here refuse to go beyond their SOW and yes, it is us not the contractors who ultimately have to answer to Pentagon and take the blame if projects fail. And frankly, the image of the complacent government worker, IMO is a stereotype. The US is still the most powerful nation in the world with the best military and intelligence system. I am guessing that wasn’t the product of lazy government workers.</p>
<p>Citan…</p>
<p>I will agree, there have been “talks” about getting “new blood and new viewpoints” in the Govie staff. One way is what you pointed out…new college grads. Another rumored solution is to somehow “reduce” the billing rates to contractors to the point that hopefully some contractors become Govies. Actually those rumors supposedly have Obama in on this approach also and the soon-to-be new head of the No Such Agency. Of course, the powers to be want the FBI and CIA to do the same since all 3 are in the area so contractors cannot swarm to the other INTEL agency. Also, they want new blood so that more private-industry practices can be used. It is still embarrassing that Carnegie Mellon’s SEI had to leave frustrated from the No Such Agency because they received pushback to implement a decent level CMMI.</p>
<p>Only time will tell. Either way, I still like the fact that their will be opportunities. Maybe a cut in pay but still opportunities…which is overall my #1 thing I like about engineering. Steady decent pay beats no pay.</p>
<p>does engineering even make a lot of money? No, of course not. Are you smoking!</p>
<p>if so, what kind of engineering and how much do they make? <a href=“http://www.glassdoor.com%5B/url%5D”>www.glassdoor.com</a> will tell you. You won’t be very exciting about it!</p>
<p>and will the salary go up or down in the future? lets say 7-10 years? Many companies freeze the salary for years or even cut the salary due to recession. There are a lot of China/India engineers coming to US. Many of engineering jobs are outsourcing (It is true in my field Semiconductor) You tell me whether you expect the salary will go up. You are lucky still having a job in next 10 or 20 years!</p>
<p>If you are very intelligent, why don’t you get a job as Medical doctor or other careers (pay much better, much higher job security)? Unless you really love engineering work (Be careful, what you learn in school may be very different from what you do in real world. Make sure you know what you are getting into! You may get into the situation ‘bait and switch’). It is not worth to do it for money because you cannot make a lot of money. Unless you joined Microsoft in 80s, you might may milions. Those companies are very hard to find. </p>
<p>I don’t even see very bright in Engineering field (EE) in US. Many jobs are moving to Asia. There will be less and less engineering jobs in US.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The simple reason is that you can’t just decide one fine day that you want to be a doctor. Many (perhaps most) engineers simply can’t get into medical school. Engineering therefore truly is the best realistic career choice for many people.</p>
<p>Many can get into Medical school but just don’t want to be doctors. Life isn’t always just about money.</p>
<p>Medical doctor’s salaries have been going down in recent years due to malpractice insurance not to mention the cost of medical school that has been dramatically increasing. Also, have you ever thought that certain people don’t want to be medical doctors?</p>
<p>Terencec, you seem to have a very negative view towards engineering. Maybe you are unhappy with your situation but that doesn’t mean you should bash the entire profession. You are just discouraging people who are trying to get factual information from this forum. When you say engineering doesn’t make a lot of mony what are you comparing it to? Compared to a neurosurgeon, maybe not (even though this is not a fair comparison), but compared to the vast majority of jobs, engineering will do quite well. Salary statistics show this so I’m not sure why you are acting like we might as well go work at a fast food place instead of working in engineering. Engineering is one of the highest paying professions out there and it offers many opportunities in a variety of industries.</p>
<p>In the next 10 to 20 years there will be a need for talented engineers in this country. Enough with this doomsday stuff already. Don’t buy into all of the outsourcing hype. Many engineering jobs simply can’t be outsourced. Most fields of engineering are more stable than a lot of other jobs out there. In my experience, I think engineering is a great career.</p>
<p>I would guess that there are current Biomedical Engineers, Chemical Engineers and even some Medical Physicists who COULD have been doctors if they WANTED to. </p>
<p>Say what you want about engineering but not too many majors pay what engineering pays for JUST 4 years of school. Also certain areas of engineering and I.T. have much more jobs than available candidates…so tell me that isn’t job security. Your superiors in engineering are nice to you because they know that you can leave them (and their project) high-and-dry and go work for the competitor next door.</p>
<p>The money is good. Hell (and I hope my boss doesn’t create a profile on here and read it…lol), but sometimes is amazes me what I get paid just to tell folks something will take 4 days to do when it can be done in less than a day.</p>
<p>My S has NO interest in medicine but is happy (so far) with EE. He will be graduating in May and happily has two job offers in hand and believes he will probably receive more. Both job offers are very attractive and offer good job security and are in highly desirable areas of the country. </p>
<p>He has no complaints, tho he does plan to allow his employer to pay for him to go to grad school as well.</p>
<p>Could engineering graduates work in investment banking-related fields?
Does IB jobs have higher starting salaries than eng. related jobs?</p>
<p>IB recruits from varied fields, as I understand it, but the job picture is a bit hazy at the moment due to the economy. My friend’s D & her husband (both in IB) have NO background in business or finance or economics. I believe many of their friends in IB are similar. They both handle mind-boggling sums of money.</p>
<p>“Medical doctor’s salaries have been going down in recent years due to malpractice insurance not to mention the cost of medical school that has been dramatically increasing. Also, have you ever thought that certain people don’t want to be medical doctors?” </p>
<p>Yes, sure, I don’t want to be a doctor. But there is an option for intelligent people, If you are intelligent enough to do engineering, you should be able to do other careers which you could make more money if it is your objective. My point is if one wants to make a lot money, he should not be an engineer. An engineer is not about making a lot of money, it is about if you like what you do. It is bonus if he/she could make a lot of money. The chance an engineer could make a lot of make is not good. </p>
<p>I agree salary is relative. Engineering has high ‘start’ salary compared most of jobs but it is not much different after few years of experience in other fields. The future is not very bright in engineering at least my field ‘EE’. Most companies do not raise for years. Even they raise, it is below inflation. Most benefits are cut. Please go to <a href=“http://www.glassdoor.com%5B/url%5D”>www.glassdoor.com</a> to look at those big companies such IBM or Intel, HP or midsize companies Xilinx, Altera, Maxim-IC salary report and review. If you live in big cities such as San Francisco or Silicon Valley, the living cost is very expensive. Even you make $100K does not mean a lot in those cities.</p>
<p>“In the next 10 to 20 years there will be a need for talented engineers in this country. Enough with this doomsday stuff already. Don’t buy into all of the outsourcing hype. Many engineering jobs simply can’t be outsourced. Most fields of engineering are more stable than a lot of other jobs out there. In my experience, I think engineering is a great career.”</p>
<p>I hope you are right because I am an EE for next 25 years at least. I am very doubt what you said. Many companies even say they cannot hire enough engineers now. (I bet) the reasons they said it because they want to import cheaper labor to US. In Hi-Tech (EE field), most companies move/build FAB (fabrication plants) to Asia, most FAB are subsized by oversea governments so they are much more attrative to build in Asia than in US. I don’t see why they will move back to US. More than 10 Fabs close since recession 2 years ago in US. A few companies went bankrupcy. In EE field, companies are outsourcing design engineers, test engineers, process engineers, product engineers, device engieners, yield engineers. Almost any engineer in EE field could be outsourcing. The big companies outsource the engineers faster. The whole Silicon Valley may be like Detroit someday.</p>
<p>Most engineers do not get raise for years, benefits are cut and even you get raise, you may just get 1% or 2%. Max is 5% raise and I know nobody gets 5% raise in my company. My boss does not get raise for years. It is not uncommon in this industrial.</p>
<p>I strongly believe doing things for money is bad idea. Doing what you love, you will do well. Even you can’t make a lot of money, at least you will enjoy what you do. Fortunately, I like what I am doing. So even the future is not very rosy, at least I have good time. Other engineer disciplines may have better future. My view applies to EE and CE/CS field only. My view may be wrong but I am very doubt it!!!</p>
<p>how do things look for chemical engineering?</p>
<p>Terencec, you are making a huge generalization based on your situation. When you say your chances of making a lot of money in engineering are not good, what are considering to be a lot of money, a million dollar salary? You paint such a grim picture of engineering. Most people would be thrilled to have a salary of 100k. You make that sound like peanuts. You do realize that a six figure salary puts you in the top 10 or 15 percent in this country. There are a lot of jobs out there where you will never hit six figures. In engineering you very likely will and if you truly succeed in your engineering field there is the potential to make much more as a manager, consultant, technical specialist, etc…</p>
<p>Seriously, what job would you suggest that is so much better? A neurosurgeon will make more than an engineer but will also have huge medical school debt and won’t be done with residency and training until mid thirties. Its all relative. If you keep things in perspective, an engineering degree is a very desirable thing to have. Why do so many people attempt engineering but fail? Because it is a very difficult field but also rewarding.</p>
<p>If engineering is a passion for someone then it will be a very good career in terms of nature of work, job security, and compensation. I just don’t see why you are trying to discourage prospective engineers on this forum based on your situation.</p>
<p>The key is finding a job you like and living within the limits of your income. If you want an expensive lifestyle, you need to find a job that can pay for it. </p>
<p>In my case, I like engineering. I may a good starting salary but after 3 years of being an engineer and getting married and having a child, my opinion of my salary is not as good as it used to because of the financial burdens that have come along with building a family. So one of my main goals right now is trying to find a job that will pay more money, but at the same time making sure it is something that I will like to do. Right now I feel that I am doing the best I can with living within my means. The only other option is to make more money, and staying in engineering won’t do it.</p>
<p>And to expand on the neurosurgeon example, remember that that neurosurgeon would end up working long hours and spending the rest of his life worrying about lawsuits and whether Congress will pass a health care bill that destroys his career. There’s a lot of risk, stress, etc. in any job that pays well–that’s why they pay so well.</p>
<p>Thank you citan and globaltraveler for your comments about security clearance and government jobs - they were very helpful.
I’m looking to major in aerospace engineering (or mechanical) and a good half or more of aerospace jobs are in the government.</p>
<p>I have one question, though (for either, or both or anyone else working in the intel/government dept.). I came to the US when I was 4 on a greencard, and now I have dual US and EU citizenship. How will this affect me when applying for government jobs?</p>