<p>Imagine if they have excellent grades,speak various languages, are involved in sports and arts, but they studied in Mexico. Could they be accepted? Or would the difference of country be an issue?</p>
<p>If you are good,you can get in</p>
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<p>I would actually turn the question around and, rather than asking why med-school/law-school adcoms don’t implement a different admissions policy, instead ask why don’t undergrad programs change their premed/prelaw grading policies?</p>
<p>After all, it is now fairly universally established - if not universally liked - that med/law adcoms take relatively little account of the difficulty/grading of coursework when determining admissions which therefore encourages sandbagging. So then why don’t undergrad programs fully exploit this fact to the hilt by deliberately providing ‘pre-sandbagged’ versions of their coursework? For example, schools could offer a “premed-targeted” version of all premed coursework, where basically everybody will receive an A? Or they could implement a special drop policy for all premed courses where students would be allowed to drop such courses from their transcripts whenever they want - including after already learning what their final grades would have been. I might also tailor all premed coursework to teach students precisely what they need to know to prepare for the MCAT (as judged by MCAT prep books) - in essence, giving every premed student a Kaplan/Princeton-Review MCAT tutorial as part of their coursework. </p>
<p>Those are precisely the sorts of policies that I would implement if I was an administrator. I would be vastly improving the odds of my students to be admitted to med-school, hence surely increasing overall student satisfaction (and by extension, alumni donations from happy future physicians) and similarly would then improve the attractiveness of my school to prospective applicants. </p>
<p>For those who might argue that such proposals would sunder the academic integrity of school, I would say that, frankly, that’s happened already. Sandbagging and other grade-gamesmanship happens now at every school: for example, there is little dispute that certain majors are notably more difficult than others. {Pop quiz - name me a school where chemical engineering is considered to be an easy major populated with ‘refugee’ students who switched from other majors they found to be too difficult for them.} Yet premed/prelaw adcoms don’t really care about the difficulty of your major and a common student strategy is to choose an easy major and cherry-pick easy classes within that major. Rich students right now readily purchase MCAT/LSAT tutorial services - and indeed, many (almost certainly most) campus grounds are plastered with advertisements for those services. Hence, I don’t really see how my proposals would compromise the academic mission of a school further than it already has been compromised. </p>
<p>But right now we have a truly suboptimal solution: med/law-school adcoms implementing an (almost certainly inequitable) admissions process, and undergrad programs refusing to adjust to that process. Short of helping their own students achieve their goals, undergrad programs seem to serve as obstacles to their students.</p>
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<p>Frankly, I think there’s far more to that notion than probably even the posters of the above two comments even realize. Let’s be perfectly honest - from a purely financial standpoint, a bachelor’s degree from Harvard probably doesn’t provide a significantly higher rate of return than one from any of its peer schools (and almost certainly less than MIT, which grants highly marketable engineering or Sloan management degrees to a strong majority of its graduates). The reason why people preferentially choose Harvard above those other schools is primarily for the social status. And let’s face it, people will exert Herculean efforts into achieving higher social status - always have and always will. </p>
<p>And lest anybody think that the pursuit of social status is meaningless, I would point to the archetypal activity alluded to by the posters quoted above where status provides persistent benefits: the dating market. At the risk of inflaming sexist stereotypes, let’s face it, women tend to want to date men of high social status. {In contrast, men tend to care more about the physical attractiveness of the woman.} At least for men, the Harvard brand provides that status symbol that may be necessary to draw interest. They don’t call it ‘dropping the H-bomb’ for nothing. </p>
<p>I know one guy who, by his own admission, is physically unattractive, short, and shy. He’s intelligent, well-read, and a very nice guy, but the truth is, few woman would ever have the chance to appreciate that unless they actually gave him a chance - a chance apparently afforded to him by his Harvard background. He doesn’t seem to lack in company with amazing women: of the 10 most amazing women (not just in terms of physical beauty, but also in terms of intellect and heart) I’ve ever met in my life, he’s probably dated 7 of them, and is close to asking one of them to marry him. It’s hard for me to imagine any of that happening if he had just attended an average school, for, frankly, those women would never have given him the time of day. </p>
<p>To be clear, for those who might be reading this post and find the story far too cynical and shallow, I would emphasize that today’s dating market is brutal. You need something to break through the scrum. If you’re a physically unattractive guy, what are you going to do? If his Harvard education convinces women to at least give that guy a chance, then that education may be worth every penny it cost. </p>
<p>That’s why I reemphasize the point that the rate of return of a college education cannot be measured by purely financial terms alone. Like I said, after a certain point after which your basic needs are met, money makes little difference. Once you’re making a decent middle-class lifestyle, an extra $10-20k a year won’t really change your life. Many (almost certainly most) of us would gladly forfeit that to find our true love.</p>
<p>So Sakky implies that an ivy education increases the chance of true love because women are more likely to date Harvard students??? Yikes!!!</p>
<p>First of all, you overlook half the Harvard students, that is the female half. Many men are intimidated by high achieving women, so they may be less likely to get dates. Sexism is alive and well.</p>
<p>Second, I am enough of a romantic to believe that one can find true love even without an Ivy eduction. Millions do. In fact, one could argue that true love is less likely because you need to get over that Harvard thing. Does she love you for you or does she love your Harvard degree?</p>
<p>In Des Moines the above wouldn’t make a difference but DC, NYC and Beantown, absolutely. In other parts of the country professionally it can hurt you. Take it from one who knows. You drop the H bomb (if someone asks) and people look at you like you have two heads.</p>
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<p>Hey, I don’t have be the one to imply it. It’s already been implied by existing [businesses</a>.](<a href=“http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-10-26/features/sc-fam-1026-harvard-date-2-20101026_1_harvard-man-harvard-students-and-alumni-new-site]businesses”>http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-10-26/features/sc-fam-1026-harvard-date-2-20101026_1_harvard-man-harvard-students-and-alumni-new-site)</p>
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<p>Which is why I specifically said that the above analysis regarding the value of social status within dating circles applies strictly to men. I am sure that women also obtain value through the social status of the Harvard brand, just perhaps not within the dating market. </p>
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<p>Well, I don’t know that that should be called ‘sexism’, unless by that you mean that society treats men and women according to different metrics. For example, it’s a well-established fact that society places a great premium on thinness and beauty for women, whereas men tend to be judged primarily on their status and wealth. After all, how exactly does an ugly fat guy with a ludicrous hairstyle such as Donald Trump get to date supermodels? Or heck, even in the world of academia, I can think of a number of tenured professors who have dumped their wives for younger, thinner, prettier trophies. {Note, I am not condoning this practice, I am merely pointing out that it happens, and we all know it.} Note how the reverse practically never happens - hardly anybody ever dumps their young, thin, pretty wife for an old, ugly, fat girlfriend. For that reason, I agree that society strongly discriminates against ugly, fat women, and if that’s sexism, then unfortunately we have to live with it whether we like it or not. </p>
<p>But the same is also true regarding discrimination against certain types of men who are also largely undateable through no fault of their own. For example, surely we can think of many women who are loathe to date any man who is shorter than they are. Society therefore strongly discriminates against short men far more than against short (or tall) women, and that is surely a form of sexism. I can also think of a number of women who are loathe to date any man who is unemployed and has no promising job prospects. {On the other hand, I doubt that many men would refuse to date an unemployed woman if she was beautiful.} Is that not also sexism? </p>
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<p>Obviously most people do. Just like even plain-looking women and short men also often times do find love. But that doesn’t stop the plain-looking women from wanting to be beautiful, and the short men from wanting to be taller. </p>
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<p>But the same is true of any asset in the dating market. Beautiful women can and do rightfully ask themselves whether their suitors are truly interested in them as people, or just in their physical beauty? But that doesn’t mean that they want to trade in their beauty. Nobody goes to a plastic surgeon and asks to look older and uglier. The fashion and cosmetics industries are multi-billion dollar industries for a reason. </p>
<p>The truth is, every long-term relationship has to be instigated with an initial spark, and that spark almost always consists of a superficial ‘hook’. For all the women who are reading this and find these posts to be unnerving yet who are currently in relationships, let’s face it, your relationship would never have started in the first place had the man not initially found you to be physically attractive to some degree. Be honest with yourself; you know it’s true. </p>
<p>I therefore don’t see how a man who would leverage a Harvard (or other high-status university) affiliation to attract women is any more frivolous or superficial than women ‘leveraging’ fashionable clothes, hairstyles, and makeup in order to attract men. I suspect that the ‘marginal benefit’ of a Harvard degree on the dating market (apart from other financial benefits that Harvard degree might entail) - if it could be converted to a financial price - is probably less than what the typical woman pays for beauty/fashion goods over her lifetime. If you continue to disagree, then ask yourself why the women’s worldwide fashion and cosmetics industries generate billions of dollars in revenue every year. Why is it sleazy for a man to pay a premium for a Harvard degree but perfectly fine for a woman to pay a premium for a fabulous dress? </p>
<p>Let me put it this way. If a man utilizes his Harvard degree to attract a women who turns out to be the love of his life, or a woman utilizes a fashionable wardrobe and stunning hair and makeup job to attract a man who turns out to be the love of her life, what’s wrong with that? Is that bad, and if so, why? At least they’re not lonely. At the risk of sounding like a trope from a love song: there are a lot of lonely people in the world. There are plenty of people - men and women - who wish they could meet somebody and never do. </p>
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<p>That’s the beautiful part of the strategy - you only need invoke the H-bomb when necessary. After all, as a general rule, nobody goes around talking about which college you went to as a matter of typical social discourse. If you find yourself in a setting where the Harvard name would generate unwelcome interest, then you simply don’t talk about, or you handwave your background by talking about a anonymous ‘school in the East’ that you attended. </p>
<p>And besides, in the dating market, at least for men, it is important that you be unique. Women generally don’t want to date just the ‘typical’ guy in their region, they want to find somebody who has something unique about them. In Des Moines, having a degree from Iowa State* isn’t really going to set you apart as unique. But a Harvard degree certainly will - perhaps enough to at least get the first blind date. {For example, you can have one of your friends advertise you to available women as a ‘guy who went to Harvard and therefore may be interesting to talk to over coffee’ rather than just the ‘guy who went to Iowa State’.} Obviously you have to perform well on that first date, but at least you have a chance. Most guys can’t even get that first date. </p>
<p>*Note, I don’t mean to pick on Iowa State specifically. It’s just a large school that happens to be close to Des Moines.</p>
<p>In other words,if you are ugly or at least have few dating options,go to Harvard.If however you happen to possess options,but are poor,go to MIT(and major in something technical to get a good salary)</p>
<p>Sounds about right. And go see the Social Network for Harvard student dating tips from Zuckerberg.</p>
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<p>I’d actually make a far larger point than that because the point is hardly restricted to just ugly men. Even if you’re a handsome and tall man, you may still want to go to Harvard, because it gives you more options. Who doesn’t want more options? With more options, you maximize your chances of finding the person that’s right for you. Even many tall and handsome men end up in unsuccessful relationships because being tall and handsome was all they had going for them, and they had nothing else with which to attract anybody. The same can be said for women: a beautiful woman will surely attract plenty of men, but a beautiful woman who is also nice and fun to talk to will attract even more men. </p>
<p>But more importantly, as I said before, I frankly don’t see why a man who leverages the Harvard brand to attract women is being any more unseemly than a woman who chooses to wear makeup, a fashionable hairstyle and a smart wardrobe. After all, she is doing so to attract men, is she not? Honestly, why else would she be dolling herself up? Or do women simply collectively enjoy ‘throwing away’ billions of dollars on cosmetics, beauty products, and trendy clothes every year? </p>
<p>The fact is, as women surely know all too well, unless you’re a rare natural beauty, it’s hard to attract a man if you wear no makeup, have bad hair, and frumpy clothes. That is true no matter how much we might wish it weren’t so. Hence, as a woman hoping to attract men, why would you deliberately deprive yourself of those tools? Similarly, as a man trying to attract a woman, why would you deliberately deprive yourself of an attractive status symbol such as an affiliation with, frankly, the most famous university brand name in the world? {To be clear, having it doesn’t mean that you have to always use it, for like I said, you can simply choose not to reveal where you went to school, just as a woman could choose not to wear makeup on any given day. But they’re useful options to have if you need them.} </p>
<p>Honestly, I’m starting to get the feeling that recent snarky objections stem from pure jealousy: you weren’t given the option to go to Harvard, and now you’re scared that somebody who did might steal away somebody you’d like to date by dropping the H-bomb. But to that, I would say that your jealousy is badly misplaced - there are plenty of tall and handsome men out there who snap up women by dropping the “tall/handsome bomb” on them. Shouldn’t your resentment be most directed towards those guys? At least Harvard admissions are somewhat meritocratic such that if you study hard, you too might have the chance to attend Harvard, perhaps for graduate studies. But there’s literally nothing you can do to become tall and handsome.</p>
<p>hill harper went to harvard (does the law school count?)…think he played football there…he’s kinda cute (definitely wouldn’t call him ‘ugly’)… i think he’s from iowa originally…he’s not all that tall (i met him in person, and i think i was a bit taller, maybe by an inch or so)…but ‘tall’ is relative.</p>
<p>My grade school friends have more wives than any Harvard graduate.Please supply a more concrete reason why it is worth it</p>
<p>i meant my grade school drop out classmates</p>
<p>Sakky made a series of very interesting and compelling argument from a man’s perspective. The argument may sound offensive to a group of people. It has some truth to it.
I would like to provide another example in supporting Sakky’s point: A friend sent his D to Harvard for one important purpose. And that is to find a husband who is comparable to her in both intellectual capacity and future earning potential. From a parent’s perspective, that is not out of the norm.</p>
<p>In terms of ROI, one can assign a tangible value in the spreadsheet for the calculation as well. Most of us would be satisfied with qualitative calculation only.</p>
<p>Well, this thread just got really interesting! I agree with sakky, and would add that viewing the college experience itself as a dating aid is not new. In our day, the idea of going to school to find a mate was usually associated with women, and was dubbed “getting her MRS.”</p>
<p>Times have changed, and this consideration did not at all enter my mind when my oldest two were making college decisions. However, recently I was thinking about the advantages of the elite school dating pool, since several friends’ daughters who attend community college and hang around the local clubs, are dating what I’d consider undesirable men. For example, one guy is on probation and has a court date for another charge. Meanwhile, my D at HYPS is dating a young man most mothers would consider a prize.</p>
<p>After college it really does become all about the $$, IMHO. Take a nice Harvard guy who’s working in not for profit and a nice Adelphi grad who’s a bond trader and who’s going to get the girl?</p>
<p>^ Depends. It’s not quite that shallow for most women. The girl could be a nice Brown girl who also is working for a non-profit and appreciates the Harvard guy’s generosity of spirit. Not every girl wants luxury, but we all seek stability.</p>
<p>The elite degree is a signaling device, but of course the person needs to come through and validate the label! Still, a student isn’t generally admitted to a school like Harvard without having a heck of a lot going for him or her. With few exceptions, s/he will be intelligent, hard-working and accomplished (and possibly rich and connected too) and those are very desirable traits in a potential mate.</p>
<p>“go see the Social Network for Harvard student dating tips from Zuckerberg.”</p>
<p>You know that part was just really well-written fiction, right? Marc Zuckerberg is engaged to his college girlfriend, who went to Harvard, not BU. They’ve been dating since 2003 (i.e. before Facebook got started).</p>
<p>A skewed gender ratio is the best answer for someone who needs a leg up in dating.A girl is more likely to get maximum attention at MIT, where there are many men that at Harvard where the ratio is more equitable.</p>
<p>^
Doesn’t MIT actually have a very balanced gender ratio?</p>