<p>People ought to remember that Newsweek (and USNWR? I didn't know it ranked high schools) uses a quick-and-dirty methodology that has the twin virtues of (a) promoting its correspondent's policy agenda, and (b) being able to be compiled by a couple of interns over the course of a few months, without having to leave their office. It's not nuanced at all, and relies on four or five bits of data.</p>
<p>College admissions offices, however, have an absolute ton of REAL information about high schools, the information they care about. In many cases they will get applications from dozens of students at the same school every year, together with recommendations from almost all of the faculty and every one of the guidance counselors. They will know the relationship of grades to one another, the different curricular choices students make, the relationship of GPAs to standardized test scores. They are able, if they want, to track the performance of graduates of that high school at their university.</p>
<p>Representatives will visit many of the high schools, sometimes annually. Students who attended the high school may work in the admissions office.</p>
<p>Of course, not every college knows about every high school in America. But every college knows a lot about every high school from which it regularly receives applications in any quantity. Not Newsweek-type knowledge; REAL knowledge.</p>
<p>So . . . I doubt that a Newsweek ranking matters at all. It certainly doesn't matter if kids from a school don't apply to a particular college. And if kids from a school do apply to that college with any regularity, the college doesn't have to look at Newsweek to know what it thinks.</p>
<p>I actually don't know if USNWR ranks high schools. For all I know it may have been Newsweek. I do know that attending highly ranked colleges can help students into graduate schools. I wondered if the same thing worked for high schools.</p>
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I do know that attending highly ranked colleges can help students into graduate schools. I wondered if the same thing worked for high schools.
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To attend a highly ranked college one needs to have individually made some impressive achievements. </p>
<p>To attend a highly ranked public high school one needs to live at a particular address.</p>
<p>To attend a highly ranked private high school one generally only needs to break out their checkbook. </p>
<p>So considering that it shouldn't be too big of a surprise what most colleges think of the name of the school on the application. The name of the school is relevant in so much as checking their own internal records for getting an idea of what's on offer and available at that particular school. A college might be more impressed with someone that has 2APs from a small rural high school (where that's all the APs offered) than someone from a 'top ranked high school' with 3 APs (but where there are many more on offer).</p>
<p>I don't think there's any question that every selective college has some sort of informal list of "feeder" high schools from which, historically, it has gotten high-quality applicants, it has accepted a comparatively large number of students, and a large percentage of high-quality accepted students have enrolled. It's not that the college will ignore a fabulous applicant from an unknown high school in favor of the 10th-best candidate from Feeder Prep. But when the tough decisions are being made, the admissions committee's confidence that they KNOW what a 3.78 GPA at Feeder Prep means, and they KNOW who the toughest teacher in the school is and that he really likes this kid, can make a positive difference for a few applicants from Ol' Feeder.</p>
<p>And some high schools are so well known that they effectively serve as feeders for a wide range of colleges. Public magnet schools like Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, and Hunter in NYC, Boston Latin, or Thomas Jefferson in Alexandria VA, and non-magnet schools where wealthy, well-educated parents send their kids, like Scarsdale, New Trier, Palo Alto, Lower Merion. Top boarding schools that do a great job of educating kids. Top private day schools, especially the super-snooty ones in NYC and Harvard-Westlake in LA, and the old-school Jesuit-run academic high schools.</p>
<p>So, sure, going to the right high school can help at the margins. Only at the margins, though. And sometimes it can hurt. The 30th-best student in her class at Stuyesant or Thomas Jefferson might have been some lesser school's once-in-a-decade superstar.</p>
<p>But it's a separate question whether Newsweek rankings matter in identifying "right" high schools. My guess is they don't, since they really aren't measuring much that's interesting -- the number of AP etc. courses kids take, regardless of how they do. (Some of the best schools don't even offer AP courses, because they think they can do a better job of curriculum design. And they're right.) By the time a school shows up in the Newsweek rankings, any college that is paying attention knows whether it is seeing interesting applicants coming out of that school -- and that's really what matters.</p>
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By the time a school shows up in the Newsweek rankings, any college that is paying attention knows whether it is seeing interesting applicants coming out of that school -- and that's really what matters.
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Absolutely... the Newsweek rankings are essentially useless so far as colleges are concerned. The college will have its own internal databases and will make their own determinations as to what they consider a 'top' high school. </p>
<p>The colleges themselves pay surprisingly little attention to where their own school shows up in the rankings for similar reasons. Such rankings help US News and the like sell magazines and make money, but that's about the only thing they've been proven to accurately and reliably do.</p>
<p>Our high school has been sinking down the Newsweek rankings as more schools are emphasizing APs. We offer lots, (24?), but have plenty of kids who don't take any as well. We've always been on the list, but I think we are around number 1000 now. As JHS said, much more important is that we have a history of sending top students to good schools where they do well. I've seen the same admissions officers at college night for the last five years and many have commented that they are very aware of the schools offerings and that it is a hidden gem, far better than the average test scores that get printed in the paper suggest. (And those SAT scores BTW jumped 100 points after they instituted a low cost (very, very low cost to low income students) test prep course.</p>
<p>There is actually research that shows that kids attending top ranked magnet schools are handicapped in the college admissions race, for reasons you can probably guess: class rank and such. In other words, it is harder to look like a start at these kind of schools. </p>
<p>Curiously, researchers do not find any kind of similar effect among prep school students. Evidence of prep school bias at elites?</p>
<p>Newsweek rankings of HS? Widely viewed as rather a joke, but take note that even the inventor of the ranking scheme, Jay Matthews, is careful to point out that the formula does not pick out the "best" schools as much as the schools that best exemplify the qualities Jay is promoting - wide use of and access to AP courses. </p>
<p>As a result, I would be shocked if colleges paid the slightest bit of attention to these rankings. Indeed, the only folks that seem to pay any attention to them now are (1) The newsweek team and its affiliate the Washington Post and (2) those associated with schools that are highly ranked.</p>
<p>Put another way, no one sees any movement toward modified SAT policies in order to boost one's rank. Just ask your local HS principal.</p>
<p>newmass: I'd love to see that research. While I am not immune to the thought "My kid would be a star if he weren't surrounded by so many stars", my lived experience is that when you have a concentration of really strong kids at a school, they do better on average than the onesey-twosey top students at weaker schools. Of course, that's on average, and some kids are going to be on the low side of the average.</p>
<p>The other thing I believe based on experience is that it takes a somewhat different character to be a high-performing kid at a low-performing school than it does to be a high-performing kid at a high-performing school. So, sure, #40 in the class at Advanced Magnet may be smarter and do better quality work than #1 at Backwash High, but if you took #40 out of Advanced Magnet and put him in Backwash High for four years, there really isn't any guarantee that he would be #1 there.</p>
<p>Changing the question a bit just to public schools, isn't whether a kid goes to a really good public hs an accomplishment of the <em>parents,</em> not the kids? After all, what separates the kid who goes to New Trier HS versus the kid who goes to Average Suburban Public HS is simply the affluence level of the <em>parents</em> who were able to afford a home in the New Trier district. That's not the kid's doing, or a reflection on him for going to Average Suburban Public High, and I'm sure colleges figure that out.</p>
<p>in my county, there are a lot of top public high schools, all ranking somewhere in the "top 100". it used to be believed that if you were in the IB program at one high school, you were automatically accepted into a top ranking college. one year, there was an uproar when a student from the IB program was rejected from yale, and a "regular" student at the same high school was accepted. my class at my "regular" hs, which always ranked right below the one with the IB, actually got into more and better schools than from the IB, with more kids getting into their top choices at top ranking colleges and universities. in this year's ranking, my school was actually ranked above the IB program, and the top public hs in my state, probably because of that reason. makes you wonder if an IB education is actually worth the extra work and stress in order to get accepted...</p>
<p>I'll have to look at it closely. The article suggests that the 30th-ranked student at Thomas Jefferson is equivalent to the 9th-ranked student at a good suburban public high school and the 1st-ranked student at a normal public high school. It also suggests that the valedictorian at the normal public high school would be more highly valued by a selective college. </p>
<p>But that's exactly what my experience contradicts, and what the study may contradict, too. From the article, it appears that there were over 40 HYP acceptances at TJ. There is probably some overlap, but a bunch of the top-ranked kids at TJ were accepted at one of HYP. How many valedictorians at garden-variety public schools are accepted at HYP? Around here, the answer is few to none. In the city of Philadelphia, the number of non-magnet public school students accepted at any Ivy -- including Penn, which accepts a lot of Philadelphia students -- would round to approximately 0 per year. Vs. 80-90 from the magnet schools. So how are the kids at the magnet schools disadvantaged?</p>
<p>Plus, the whole premise of the article bugs me. When I sent my kids to a magnet school, I didn't do it because I thought it would help them get into a fancy college. I did it because I thought it would be a great educational experience for them, that they would be challenged and learn a lot both inside and outside the classroom, and be better, smarter, more mature people for it. And I assumed that if they were good, smart, mature people they would get accepted to some colleges that would help them learn and grow more. It worked out just fine in that regard.</p>
<p>Anyone who sends a kid to ANY school as part of a plan that depends on getting accepted at a particular college for success doesn't get a shred of sympathy from me.</p>
<p>It really depends on the schools involved. The question is not that easy to answer. Many large state schools that have so many applicants do not bother much with that kind of detail. They stick in the gpa/rank, SAT/ACT, and if there is room left and you make the cut, you are in, unless your app is pulled for a special category that allows special consideration (athletes, special programs). On the other hand, some colleges that are very selective and small scrutinize the apps down to the high school to a detail beyond the top 100 list.<br>
Sometimes coming from such schools will not help you. Some schools will assume that you come from a particular socio-economic advantage, given that you are from a great school district and will assess you in that framework. You have had soooo many advantages, such a great high school that you should be doing quite well. Someone without those advantages may show better. Also the recs from those schools may not stand out so well when there are so many talented students there. I remember a friend who moved from a small mediocre school district when her fourth child came of high school age. She was so happy to finally be able to provide this brightest and last child the best high school education in the state, as the school was ranked top in that regard. Well, her other kids played on varsity sports, had great roles in the school plays, were leaders in student council, took all of the AP and honors courses, and were considered top dogs in that old school district. Child #4 was just another bright kid at this high powered school where the competition was very, very tough. You had to apply to the honors and AP classes and only the top kids got in as there were limited spots. The parents tended to be aggressive about the school and if you were not that way, your kid often would not get something deserved. It was a horrible revelation.</p>
<p>At the private school where my son went, there are a number of colleges that know and will take into account the rigidness of the curriculum. At such colleges, kids from that school would get a boost. But if kids are looking for such understanding from the vast majority of the colleges, they will be sadly disappointed. The most selective schools, yes, will view the students from tough private schools in that light, so that like schools are compared to like schools, but a B average at Elite Prep does not an A average a Public School make. Some of those kids may well have done much better at their public school and had a shot at HPY, but since the colleges have no way to come up with that conclusion, things are not assessed that way. It can really hurt when it comes to some of the merit awards and with the larger state schools and schools out of area that would not know the particular school. </p>
<p>So it truly depends. Often the GCs at your school can advise you where they know how your app will be assessed and guide you accordingly. Some of the catholic highschoools know the adcoms of catholic colleges, some of the prep schools know the adcoms of some of the private schools and some of the gcs of these top schools are on good speaking terms with adcoms of certain colleges where many of the kids apply and matriculate, and can maybe give a tip on a borderline case.</p>