Well said.
You can find some related studies online. For example, the student at https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/2013a_hoxby.pdf found that >90% of high achieving students from lower income families did not apply to a college with higher median SAT scores than their own. ~40% only applied to colleges with open admissions. In contrast, a little more than half of high achieving students from high income families applied to a college with higher median SAT scores than their own. Middle income families fell somewhere in between, with a minority applying to a college with higher median SAT scores than their own – substantially more than low income families and substantially less than high income families.
It’s not just a cost issue, as the HYPSM… are less expensive than other alternatives for lower income families than other alternatives, after FA. I expect much of it relates to what is common in the student’s environment – friends, families, teachers, etc. If a lot of them attended or encourage HYPSM…, students are likely to apply. If few/none of them encourage or attended HYPSM…, students are not likely to apply. Along the same lines, you’ll see drastically different rates of applications in different high schools. In Andover/Exeter/highly selective type high schools, applying to HYPSM is no doubt extremely common. While in typical public high schools with open admission, the rate of applications among top students is far lower. There are a few posts on the forum mentioning being the first person from their HS to ever apply to HYPSM… One of my relatives was the first person from her HS to ever apply to a selective, private college, which involved a lot of effort and convincing from both family and the HS. She got in, and other students started applying in future admission cycles.
Using test scores as a proxy for top students, the largest numbers of high test score students appear at flagships, rather than HYPSM. For example, Berkeley and Harvard both 75th percentile math/English ACT scores of 35, but the top 25% of students is ~1600 students at Berkeley and ~400 at Harvard. Similarly flagships get the largest number of applications. HYP… are not among the top 25 colleges that get the most applications in the United States.
Your college choice absolutely matters, if you want to work for big oil as a petroleum engineer, you should go to Texas A&M. Hour north of big oil mecca (Houston), and rated #1 for PE. If you want to work in the movie industry, USC, rated #1 in Cinematics and located next to Hollywood, if you want to start a tech start up, Stanford is the place, Silicon Valley. Politics is what you seek, Georgetown is in the heart of all of it, and guess what, rated #1 in PS. Are you getting the idea yet?
However, if you want to work in computers, CS boot camp might be the way to go. OK maybe not, I’d still consider location of the university equally important to its prestige in CS.
Anecdote: I have a friend of mine that runs a department for a major software firm in the Bay area. Interestingly, he says he has to recruit CSU’s because his department only works on the periphery of the core product. The company has UCB/Stanford CS types but they all work on the core product. Apparently its beneath them to work in his department.
The conclusions of the study on brookings.edu (interestingly, the authors were from Stanford and Harvard??) seem to stress two reasons why high achieving low income students were not applying:
1- They are poorly informed about their college-going opportunities
2- They have cultural, social, or family issues that make them unwilling to apply to peer institutions, even if they are confident of being admitted and succeeding academically
So to me this is not a student making an informed decision not to apply to HYPSM but rather a student that is not applying over lack of information or ill advised familial pressures. A shame really.
@CU123 Your friends observation aligns with what I have seen, but I think the motivation may be a little different. Many of the CS students I know that attend the likes of UCB, Stanford, MIT etc are focused on applying for jobs in very specific areas even within companies. They typically start that approach with summer internships where the goal is not just to land an internship but to land an internship in a specific group within a company that aligns with their specialized skills and future goals. So instead of looking for a Google internship, they are looking for specific opportunities within Google[x] or Google AI. So, I don’t think they consider other positions as “beneath them”, but rather that they are looking for opportunities specifically aligned to their plans.
Still the real point here is that the Stanford/UCB types are dictating where they will work and on what projects that align with their interests. CSU CS applicants simply don’t have that kind of pull. So again think prestige and location when you look at colleges.
Its not all bad though my friend says they have more fun then the core CS weenies. :D/
There are tons of “periphery” positions out there in the market place and certainly you don’t need the cream of the crop to perform these roles. But they are very valuable positions to an organization nonetheless. Examples might be test automation, ETL development to reporting organizations, or a build release engineering. And these are good stepping stone positions for future advancement.
Again that is not the point, the question is “does it matter where you go to college” and the clear answer is YES. Certainly doesn’t mean your going to be homeless if you graduate from a CSU either.
Does it matter where you work? Does it matter where you live? Does it matter where your kid goes to HS? Does it matter what travel team your kid plays on? Does it matter who your friends are? Does it matter who you choose for a CPA or attorney?
Of course it matters. Everything matters! No one is saying you can’t do well or you won’t be successful regardless.
There are those that will say the difference in cost of attending a “better” school isn’t worth it. How could they possibly know that? Choosing a different school may have set that kid’s career, albeit successful, on a different trajectory.
I have two sets of golf buddies. My regular set all play the public courses, not club members, etc. The other group are all members of the ritzy club in town. I prefer playing with the first group and have had a great time with them. The second group, however, would be much better for business. They’re business owners and lawyers and CPAs, etc. They all do business with each other. A few have mentioned to me I should join their club (pretty pricey) and would do tons of business within the group (I’m a financial advisor). I choose not to because I prefer playing with this other group. Either way I have fun playing golf, but trust me, it matters. That decision is a high 5 figure annual lost opportunity cost.
This thread reads like all students going to their specific colleges have the same experiences and opportunities. It makes it sound like all students socialize with the same people or experience the same opportunities on their respective campuses and are limited by those schools’ “avg” life experiences. For the typical student, maybe. But since in the same conversation you are discussing elite, competitive schools, the students who are qualified for admission to top schools are the students you are really discussing. Not the avg student at the avg U, but elite/extremely competitive students.
Those students at avg schools are not doing the same things as their avg peers (or at least have the opportunity for different experiences.) They are actively involved in research, being mentored by professors, etc. They are spending summers at REUs, interning/traveling with special opportunities that exist through specialized programs at their U’s, etc. I think most posters in this thread are unfamiliar with the opportunities, both on and off campus, offered top kids in specialized programs at their avg U’s and the outcomes these students have IRL.
Here is an example from UGA:
And all of that on full scholarship. That direct mentoring opens all sorts of doors. It is a false premise that connections are boxed into the sphere of that specific campus. Professors,even at state Us, have attended top grad programs and are involved in research that has another web of connections. Professionals across a spectrum of fields are aware of these programs.
I obviously do not “know” the opportunities “lost” by our kids, but I do know the opportunities our kids have had and their outcomes. Their destinations post-undergrad have been excellent and exactly the type of outcomes they would have aimed for regardless of where they went to UG.
For computers, nope it really doesn’t. It’s an industry driven entirely on experience. Most tech companies are small to medium size companies and it’s more cost effective to hire locally and regionally. If you like prestige and brand name, that’s fine, but don’t pile on debt over it. That won’t help you. In about 7 years, you’ll be making the same as the guy who graduated from the exotic university. In fact, in my current job, my boss never brought up my education in the interview. I have one, but the issue never came up.
Location is important, but you have to factor in the cost of living. In a place like San Francisco, you’re paying $1 mil for a broom closet, so it’s not a good place to start a career if you want to eat. For a place like Dallas, TX, you can start off at the mid 50k range, and you can live comfortably out of college, and since it’s a tech hub city, you could spend an entire career there easily in the six figure range.
Coolguy and I regularly disagree on this. The simple truth is that it does matter. The industry is driven by skill and experience. And, just about everything a new grad offers as far as expertise and experience comes from the college they attended. Some schools are simply better at building both the expertise and experience of their students.
Additionally, you can pick any geographic location you like and there will be a range of salaries for new grads. The higher salaries will go to those with the best expertise and experience in the most sought after skills. The salary differential can be substantial. What happens 7 years later is dependent on the individual, but landing a great position out of college is a good start i launching a career.
@Mom2aphysicsgeek : Comparing University of Georgia Foundation Fellows’ experience & opportunities is a bit unfair because–at least a few years ago–the average SAT scores for this small group of full ride scholars exceeded all average SAT scores for every Ivy League school. Not at all representative of a typical undergraduate experience at the University of Georgia or of even an Ivy League undergraduate experience.
To a certain extent, I agree that many students have differing experiences at universities. I think that that is less true at LACs.
Does it matter where one goes to college ? Sure, but the degree to which that matters varies greatly based upon one’s major & one’s career goals.
“Comparing University of Georgia Foundation Fellows’ experience & opportunities is a bit unfair because–at least a few years ago–the average SAT scores for this small group of full ride scholars exceeded all average SAT scores for every Ivy League school.”
But isn’t that the point? The scholarship is intended to persuade Ivy League caliber students to attend UGA instead. As I mentioned a few posts back, it may well be better to save money and take a full ride scholarship or attend a top instate public. It’s definitely not as simple as going to the best school you can afford.
^ That was indeed the point she was making - do an apples-apples comparison at he student level. The majority of Foundation Fellows had Ivy+ acceptances, fyi. The fellowship is a top-notch undergraduate experience. My D does not in the least regret turning down that CC-drool-inducing Ivy acceptance for it.
Agreed! I know which of my twins is the more fortunate: the one with the full ride scholarship, not the one going to the higher ranked university.
No, it is not the point of this thread & yes, I understand that that was the point that that poster was making.
@publisher But that is exactly my point. These types of threads drive me crazy b/c posters are NOT comparing like students to like students. The academically-avg student’s experience on campus is not the same as the tippy top students on an avg U’s campus. It just isn’t (unless the student just wants to attend class and do nothing else.)
Those high caliber students that choose to be wooed by the opportunities offered them at the avg U…they have 4 yrs of great mentoring and have incredible doors opened for them. And, no, their experiences are not limited by what is offered on their campuses. They are off campus doing internships and REUs, etc, as well.
Based on my reading of the original post in this thread, the OP’s concerns are focused on whether or not it matters which school he/she attends for a particular major & career.
And I do & I did understand your point–I just find it to be off topic.
If the question was about attending an Ivy versus Foundation Fellows at UGA, then that is a different discussion than whether it matters for a particular major–regardless of the individual student’s experience.
That is why I focused on accounting’s Big 4 versus those targeting MBB investment banking or management consulting.
@Mom2aphysicsgeek: In the case of a Foundation Fellows student at the University of Georgia with a perfect 4.0 in accounting seeking a position with a Big 4 accounting firm has no real advantage over students at the University of North Carolina, Boston College, Wake Forest University, Texas, Illinois, etc. who also have 4.0 GPAs in accounting.
In the case of a Georgia Foundation Fellow seeking an investment banking position or a management consulting position versus a student from any of the eight Ivy League schools, the Georgia Foundation Fellows student is at a disadvantage since he/she is not at a core school or at a target school for those positions with MBB type firms.
The fact that all students had wildly different college experiences has little to no effect in these two scenarios.
@Publisher You are speculating, and your speculation is off base. I can’t speak for other programs, but Foundation Fellows are at no disadvantage in getting positions with MBB. In fact, the fellowship has deep alumni contacts with those companies and several of the top investment banks. They are specially recruited each year and several will end up going that route upon graduation each year. Please don’t speculate and pass it off as fact.