Does it matter?

Graduate School Law School
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I believe that I conceded in the previous thread that for a top 5 school, UG prestige might matter. but for for the vast majority of applicants (99 percent), UG prestige matters very little.

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<p>...so I was right:</p>

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Let me put it this way, younghov: for the law schools at which you have a shot, the undergraduate school from which you apply doesn't matter. I guess we can rule out the majority of the top 14, then.

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<p>And I was even more right initially:</p>

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That being said, for once and for all, does the prestige of your undergrad school matter when applying to law schools?

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<p>The answer is yes: Harvard Law School, Yale Law School, Stanford Law School, Columbia Law School, and NYU Law School all take into account the school. I think more law schools do this, but all I need for you to do is concede that two do this, and I am right.</p>

<p>Why you earned your LSAT score, after reading this thread, is painfully clear. 154s do not go to those who actually know how to reason.</p>

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<p>someone has some interpersonal issues.</p>

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<p>younghov and nspeds, I really resent that you are making me have to act like an adult, but cool it. It's really enough. You don't have to carry this battle between you onto every thread to which you both respond.</p>

<p>My opinion is that your undergrad does matter, though not nearly as much as your LSAT score and GPA. There is no question that certain schools (which are more often than not among the more competitive schools to get into) tend to do better with law school admissions. The reality is that the classes of T14 law schools are filled to the brim with multiple students from top undergrads, and with one or two students (or zero, in some cases) from undergrads without top reputations. The empirical evidence for this has been cited on this board before (by me, among others). Anecdotally, I've seen it myself both while in law school and while recruiting at several top law schools over the years. I do think that this begs the chicken and the egg problem of whether students from top undergrads get into top law schools in greater numbers than students from other undergrads because these are students who tend to do well on standardized tests and to test well in classes (which certainly helped them to get into that top undergrad), or whether there their admission to a top law school is influenced by the undergrad school they attended itself. I would certainly be hard pressed to make a good argument one way or the other. </p>

<p>The fact of the matter is that your undergrad school matters not only in law schools admissions, but also in the hiring process down the line for the most competitive law firms.</p>

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The fact of the matter is that your undergrad school matters not only in law schools admissions, but also in the hiring process down the line for the most competitive law firms.

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<p>Whoa.... I... wow. I didn't know that. Why would that information even be relevant, though?</p>

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<p>Your undergrad is relevant because it is on your resume, and your resume will be very carefully reviewed by the hiring committees at any top law firm to which you apply. Sure, if you go to Harvard Law and do well, the fact that you went to an undergrad that no one has ever heard of will probably not have much of an impact on your file. Again, though, I would encourage you and anyone else who is interested to go to the websites of top law firms in NYC (as one example of this trend) -- <a href="http://www.wlrk.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.wlrk.com&lt;/a> (Wachtell), <a href="http://www.cravath.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.cravath.com&lt;/a>, <a href="http://www.sullcrom.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.sullcrom.com&lt;/a> (Sullivan & Cromwell), <a href="http://www.dpw.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.dpw.com&lt;/a> (Davis Polk) and <a href="http://www.stblaw.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.stblaw.com&lt;/a> (Simpson Thacher). Look at not only the law schools attended by the attorneys at those firms but also at the undergrads that those attorneys attended. Now, granted, you will find far more diversity in undergraduate schools represented than in law schools represented, and you must remember that many more students from top undergraduate schools go to top law schools (where most of the hiring for these firms is accomplished), but you will notice that a lot of the attorneys at these firms went to well regarded undergraduate schools. Furthermore, I have been in hiring committee meetings many times where the discinction between two very qualified candidates comes down to which undergrad they attended (assuming that they each did equally well there), particularly when partners at that firm went to that particular undergraduate school. Yes, there is definitely bonding by school at top law firms! </p>

<p>The simple reality is that a resume that shows a terrific undergrad school coupled with a top law school has a certain wow factor that makes a difference. So, just like in law school admissions, while the undergraduate school you attend is certainly not determinative in the vast majority of cases, it can (and does) make a difference at the margins.</p>

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<p>To the OP --</p>

<p>Pick a college for college. Forget about law school. You will change, your interests will change, and the consensus here is that if undergrad matters, it is NOT to so great an extent that it should be the deciding factor in your selection of schools. Pick a school you want to go to, pick it with the back-of-the-mind knowledge that you may be interested in law, and see where things take you.</p>

<p>UIUC is by no means a poor school. At all. That said, if you want to go to Northwestern, Wash U, etc. b/c you really like the schools, talk to your parents about why! If you want to go there b/c they're more prestigious and you think that will help you, then reevaluate...at least make sure you like them for more reasons than just that. If you have zero interest in UIUC, then talk to your parents and see if you can find a compromise. </p>

<p>The point is, I'm a pretty firm believer in the fact that you shouldn't pick your school based on how law schools will look at it, nor should you pick a school based solely on your parents' preferences. Not that you should (or in the latter case, can) totally neglect these things, but don't let them guide you too much, and in the case of the latter, the issue may well be up for debate.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>
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Your undergrad is relevant because it is on your resume, and your resume will be very carefully reviewed by the hiring committees at any top law firm

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<p>Well, you * can * choose to omit your undergrad. Nobody says that you * have * to list it. You have the freedom to decide what to put on your resume, as long as it's not a lie. But you are not required to put down every single thing you've ever done. I know people who have omitted some of their degrees, in one case, even omitting a PhD, because he didn't think that listing it would help him get the specific job in question.</p>

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<p>I've never heard of anyone leaving their undergrad off their resume. It's especially weird for a current law student whose highest degree is a BA to omit the school they got it from. That would probably be more detrimental than listing an obscure or less-prestigious school.</p>

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<p>In fact, law firms recruiting on campus will require students to submit a transcript, typically at the on campus interview. All law school transcripts contain a statement of the undergraduate school attended and the degree awarded at that school. I am not certain how graduate degrees are noted, if they are noted at all. I feel confident in stating that there is not a big law firm around that won't want to know where you went to school undergrad, what you studied and how well you did at that school (usually indicated by GPA).</p>

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I've never heard of anyone leaving their undergrad off their resume

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<p>Ok, well, I'll give you one very poignant example. I did, once. Granted, it was inadvertent. Basically, I had a situation where I was being forced to use a resume template, where you could only cram in a fixed amount of text in the 'education' part of the template. I have a bunch of grad and undergrad stuff, not all of which would fit into that section. So I had to omit * something *, so I chose to omit undergrad. But it didn't seem to hurt me, as I had all of the interviews that I wanted (if I don't say so myself, heh heh). </p>

<p>Now, granted, this wasn't a law firm example. But the point is, people do in fact omit their undergrad degrees from their resumes, and this is perfectly legitimate to do so. I have found this to be especially true of foreigners who have undergone different education systems back home and in which it is difficult to compare or even understand their undergraduate degree "equivalents", so what some of them do is completely omit their undergrad and just list their higher degrees. </p>

<p>I'll give you another example. I know a bunch of Russians who don't list their "undergrad degree", because technically speaking, they don't have one. The notion of bachelor's and master's degrees is a very new phenomenom in Russia and certainly didn't exist in the USSR, and my understanding is that, to this day, many Russian universities still do not offer bonafide bachelor's or master's degrees in all programs. Hence, the only actual "degree" that these guys, and many other Russians, hold is the "Science Candidate" degree, which is basically equivalent to the Western PhD. In fact, one of these Russian guys was explaining that since he never "really" got an undergrad degree back in Russia, he doesn't want to list that he has one because he doesn't want to be accused later of lying about claiming a degree that he doesn't actually have (because it didn't exist at the time), nor does he want to have to clutter up his resume by trying to explain how his education includes the 'equivalent' of a bachelor's degree. So the easiest thing for him to do is simply omit everything entirely and just list his highest degree. </p>

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In fact, law firms recruiting on campus will require students to submit a transcript, typically at the on campus interview. All law school transcripts contain a statement of the undergraduate school attended and the degree awarded at that school. I am not certain how graduate degrees are noted, if they are noted at all. I feel confident in stating that there is not a big law firm around that won't want to know where you went to school undergrad, what you studied and how well you did at that school (usually indicated by GPA).

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<p>But that just reinforces what I am saying. If they are going to find out which undergrad school you went to anyway by perusing your transcript, then there really is no need to list it on your resume too. That therefore means that you can avoid resume clutter, like in my case, where I was being forced to use a fixed template. Or in the case of foreigners who come from systems that don't actually award an actual "undergrad degree". Hence, it seems to me that the fact that whatever undergrad information is listed on your transcript, that makes the listing of it on your resume even more redundant and hence optional.</p>

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<p>I can guarantee that it would be considered quite odd for a law student to submit a resume to a law firm that did not include (at a minimum) educational information for both undergrad and law school. Failing to include information on your resume about your undergrad school (particularly since at most top law schools, you do not submit a transcript during the interviewing process until the actual on campus interview, as most top law schools prohibit employers from pre-screening applicants) in the typical format (e.g. name of school, location of school, degree, date awarded, honors, awards, major, GPA) would not only be frowned upon, but likely would also be seen as a huge negative (What is this person trying to hide? Why is this person trying to make things more difficult for me when I have to interview 30 more students from this law school on campus today? Why can't this student simply put together a resume with all relevant information?). </p>

<p>The reality is that even as a seasoned legal professional, when applying for legal jobs and submitting a resume for positions on bar committees, speaking roles, etc., it is still the norm to include all degrees awarded on a resume. Certainly, at some point in one's career, you may list list experience before education on a resume, and you may shorten you educational information to include only name of university, degree awarded and date of degree, but there is no question that that information must be there on a resume in the legal profession.</p>

<p>If you want to make the best possible first impression (and try to make sure that your first impression isn't your last), including all information relevant to your undergrad degree on your resume is a must.</p>

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<p>Now, see, it is precisely those sorts of sweeping generalizations that I dislike. From what I have seen, there are very few true 'musts' in any industry. After all, out of all of the myriad permutations out there of possibilities in the legal profession, what with boatloads of employers and employees, I am sure that somewhere out there, there has to be a situation where somebody's omitting of the undergrad degree might actually be advantageous. Like, again, a guy who graduated from a foreign university system that doesn't follow the standard Western "undergrad" paradigm. I think these things have to be taken on a case-by-case basis. </p>

<p>To give you an example, what if one of those Russian guys that I referred to before went to a US law school without actually having completed an actual bachelor's degree? Not all US law schools require bachelor's degrees, you know. I know for a fact that Whittier Law School does not. What should this guy do? Do you want him to just make up a bachelor's degree that he doesn't actually have? Do you want him to clutter up his resume with a bunch of text attempting to describe that he has a "bachelor's-equivalent" (but with no actual equivalent degree), and then risking having to justify what exactly that means to an interviewer (by having to explain the history of the Russian educational system)? Wouldn't it be easier for this guy to simply omit mention of an "undergrad degree" entirely, especially if he has a higher Russian degree? What do you want him to do?</p>

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<p>agreed that it would seem odd not to list your undergrad school. besides--it could help! i've seen many situations where interviewers attended or had a relative at a certain school and were more interested in candidates who had attended the same school.</p>

<p>career services at my (T14) law school actually doesn't advise listing undergrad GPA on the resume, because if you do then you should also list your law school gpa, and the curve at my school tends to be a bit lower than peer schools. but they do suggest listing things like "dean's list" or "phi beta kappa" since those are hints that you did well.</p>

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<p>Then that person with a Russian degree that you're describing would have to do some explaining, but would probably have put something on his or her resume, at the urging of the career planning and placement department at his or her law school, to otherwise describe his or her education. </p>

<p>I also believe, if you will review my post, that I said that leaving undergraduate information off of a law student's resume would be "quite odd", "would be frowned upon", "likely ... seen as a huge negative", and is not "the norm". I also said that undergrad information should be included to make the best possible first impression. Where are the sweeping generalizations there? These are the facts based upon many years of actual experience. This is just the way it is for students looking for jobs in top law firms, which, if you look at my post from yesterday, is what I'm talking about. </p>

<p>I'm quite confident that my advice would be echoed by career planning and placement offices in law schools across the country. A law student's resume should include information about all schools from which degrees were awarded ... and, yes, the question of whether or not to include one's undergraduate GPA on the resume has both proponents and detractors. My law school career office encouraged us to do so.</p>

<p>sakky, if your on campus law school recruiting experience as a student or as a law firm representative has been different than mine, please help me understand where you're coming from. I think that you have an interesting perspective, but it just seems quite unusual to me in the context of law school and law firm recruiting.</p>

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<p>Omitting your undergraduate institution is simply ridiculous. I don't know why you even suggested it, unless you were hoping to brag about the way a mere template could not contain your unimaginably long list of academic credentials, or thought you would be clever in pointing out an obviously-inapplicable scenario in which the suggestion may make sense. In any event, even the foreign LLMs I've met have always managed to list some kind of "undergraduate" degree. Leaving it off will strike the firms as what you say your omission was: inadvertent. And that's a pretty major oversight. At best, they'll either assume you don't know how to put together a legal resume or that you perhaps have some serious insecurities about your UG. None of those interpretations is favorable.</p>

<p>Also, law school transcripts do not always list your undergraduate institution. Mine doesn't.</p>

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<p>Student615--</p>

<p>I DEFINATELY know not to pick a school for its prestige. All the schools on my list (which is a LOT shorter than most of my friend's lists, as they are applying to 10+ top schools and about one safety. I kid you not) are on my list for a reason, and I love something about each one of them.</p>

<p>That said, thanks for your warning. It will definately always be heeded :-)</p>

<p>To everyone else: I definately didn't expect this thread to go as far as it has, but thank you all for your opinions and suggestions. Listening to differing viewpoints helps me in making decisions.</p>