<p>When you go to get a job, do they really care about where you went undergrad? What matters most is where you go to graduate school right? I want to tell my friends (who only think that Harvard is the only college on the face of the earth) that its useless to pay so much money for an undergrad education which you could get at a state university.</p>
<p>This thread comes up at least once every couple of weeks. It tends to provoke horribly simplistic answers on both sides.</p>
<p>I think that smacking your friends down for wanting to go to Harvard and telling them that state schools would be just as good would be unwise. I imagine that they will not much appreciate your self-righteousness. And most of them will not end up attending Harvard anyway, unless you have a very exceptional group of friends.</p>
<p>I would not make college plans based on the assumption that you will get into graduate or professional school. You don't know what life is going to throw at you. I think it is important to do your undergrad career such that you will be able to live a life that is satisfactory to you even if you never get education beyond your bachelor's.</p>
<p>My experience is that yes, many jobs do care where you went to undergrad, especially if you're getting the job right out of undergrad. But it is far from the only thing they care about. And where you go to college does matter in general, just as other formative experiences do, because it influences your personal development and the paths that you take in life. But it is never, ever as simple as "Harvard will make your life perfect, and the state school will leave you a cog in the machine."</p>
<p>While people can over-emphasize prestigious schools and perhaps for the wrong reasons, you shouldn't generalize that students aren't being well-served and have a fantastic time and that it's a "useless" waste of money. I loved my 4 yrs at an Ivy. Its dedication to seeing that we undergrads were fulfilled in many fronts was spectacular (and in other colleges I've worked, this was sadly lacking). </p>
<p>Is an Ivy diploma the be-all and end-all? Of course not. We are all in agreement here.</p>
<p>But your attitude is just as polar (and off-putting) as someone who believes that one's life is over if they don't attend an Ivy. There's lots of room in the middle ground.</p>
<p>Good luck to you</p>
<p>It's not where you go, it's what you do when you get there.</p>
<p>^ I think that's too simplistic. It does matter where you go, but probably not as much as some people might think.</p>
<p>I agree with what jessiehl said... go to undergrad with the idea that you might not go to grad school.</p>
<p>lolcats. i was actually going to say the same exact thing.</p>
<p>This is advice that I feel is valuable for all of life, college, relationships, and career included: Pursue excellence. Do a little <em>more</em> than what is considered really solid work. If the standard is 3 hours of homework, do 3.5 or 4. If the standard is 8-6 at work, then work 8-7 Always exceed the standard. Never settle for the standard. Separating yourself from the "standard" by only 10-20% gets noticed very quickly. If you do not find yourself pursuing excellence in the setting in which you find yourself, find another setting that will encourage that. Experiment. Find out what kind of settings bring out the best in you.</p>
<p>Now, to your question -- I have attended both public and private high school, and private (Stanford) and public (UCLA) universities. You make of every circumstance what you will. If you are able to aspire to excellence without external prodding, if you are not satisfied to perform only at the "standard", then you will thrive in most any environment -- prestigious or not, private or public, large or small.</p>
<p>There <em>is</em>, however, a great majority that is not self motivated and self directed (and not self aware). These will not perform in every environment. The increased attention at private colleges is really essential to encourange these people to aspire to an excellence about which they are ambivalent.</p>
<p>This is where the concept of "fit" is key.</p>
<p>I posted on this subject before, on another thread. For what it's worth, I'll post it here too:</p>
<p>I usually avoid discussions that argue the merits of an elite education vs. non-elite, but I’m going to jump into this one because I’m very qualified to add value.</p>
<p>I’m currently a senior executive with a Fortune 500 firm. </p>
<p>When I recruit for a top-level management position I first look at a person’s resume. </p>
<p>When someone below me in the organization recruits for a mid-level position, they first look at a person’s resume.</p>
<p>When HR recruits for any position they first look at an applicant’s resume.</p>
<p>The idea that the differentiating point on anybody’s resume, for any job, is where they went to college is absurd, and frankly, disturbing in terms of what it is doing to our children and our culture.</p>
<p>For an entry level job, if you attended ASU (just to use an example), were in their honors program, spent a year abroad, were successful in one internship and had a reference to back that up, maybe fluent in one foreign language, or had played one sport (not necessarily at the varsity or DI level), or had worked to put yourself through college, read books for a hobby, knew the names of your home state’s senators and showed up to your interview on time, well prepared, dressed appropriately, knowledgeable about my company, goals in mind, and you convinced me (or HR) that you were the one for the job, the job is yours.</p>
<p>For a mid-level job, you would need the above plus years of consistent, successful work experience.</p>
<p>For a senior level position, you need all of the above, plus remarkable talent and drive.</p>
<p>If you attended Harvard, got in as an athlete admit, or because your Grandfather knew the Dean of Admissions, or because your parents were potentially big donors to the university, and you spent four unremarkable years at Harvard and then expected the world to be your oyster…nah. Pass. Many HYP graduates don’t have the common sense and people skills required to work as successful team members. Perhaps they could be great researchers, writers or professors, but after years of experience, I’ve seen many fail in the corporate world. </p>
<p>When you perpetuate the myth that where you go to college matters, all you’re doing is allowing top-tier schools to rake in more application fees from all the unwitting high school seniors and their parents who buy into the notion that their college will determine the outcome of their life. </p>
<p>Two steps off the stage at college graduation, and the life you get is up to you.</p>
<p>I wish parents would spend more time emphasizing the rewards of effort and ethical behavior, and less time about the perceived value of a degree from xyz Ivy League school. I wish parents cared about how kind and thoughtful their children were, and cared less about saying “My kid got into Yale”. We’d all be better off if they did.</p>
<p>That depends if you want to work immediately after college.</p>
<p>Attending an undergraduate college such as Harvard, Yale, Amherst, Notre Dame, etc., will give you solid connections to work off of, since large percentages of their student bodies choose to go into business and related fields.</p>
<p>I believe that it was 40 percent of a given class at Harvard chooses to go into business.</p>
<p>T26E4, just out of curiousity, which ivy were you referring to? (about the ungraduates being fullfilled thing)</p>
<p>r2dtoo, my father is the former CEO of a publicly traded company (and soon to be of another), and said exactly the same thing. The fact of the matter is that outside a couple specific areas, no one really cares.</p>
<p>r2dtoo -
[quote]
When you perpetuate the myth that where you go to college matters, all you’re doing is allowing top-tier schools to rake in more application fees from all the unwitting high school seniors and their parents who buy into the notion that their college will determine the outcome of their life. </p>
<p>Two steps off the stage at college graduation, and the life you get is up to you.</p>
<p>I wish parents would spend more time emphasizing the rewards of effort and ethical behavior, and less time about the perceived value of a degree from xyz Ivy League school. I wish parents cared about how kind and thoughtful their children were, and cared less about saying “My kid got into Yale”. We’d all be better off if they did.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So what you're basically saying is if you're a hardworking, talented student that is able to get into a top school (ivy or top 25) you should not go there and rather go to some average state school like ASU and save money? If that were the case, then why do most top students chose ivies and other prestigious colleges over not so prestigious schools that are cheap? </p>
<p>
[quote]
Many HYP graduates don’t have the common sense and people skills required to work as successful team members.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I find that hard to believe. There may be some, but not many. You will find ten times more of these types at average schools.</p>
<p>
How many ASU students are there like this though? There are probably some but the rest just get ****faced every night of the week and skip every class. You would be lying to yourself if you honestly didn't believe that HYP grads are the ones who exhibit the type of traits you are looking for in an employee: hard work ethic, global mindset, intelligence, team skills, time management, etc. It's important to immerse yourself in such a high-achieving environment is it not? The people we grow up with are the ones who shape our values the most.</p>
<p>MightyNick, E<em>A</em>D: the truth is staring you in the face. I too have worked in hiring capacity at F500 firms in the Sales/Marketing area. I find it absurd that you would argue with people who have been there, have the experience, and go out of their way to share that real world experience with ignorant (not used pejoratively) posters.</p>
<p>When I hired (not entry level, but mid level), I cared about just a few things. Intelligence was one, but not nearly the most important quality of an applicant. Character and intelligence combined were important, along with relevant work experience, and a track record of demonstrated results. College was not given even 5% weighting.</p>
<p>EAD, you in particular live in a romantic world that will in the end abuse you and spit you out. Your posts seem to focus on little else than what you think is needed to grab a lucrative job in finance or consulting. Your focus seems to be the first two years out of college. Two years! Out of a likely forty year career! Your focus is 5% of your working life. Broaden your focus!</p>
<p>I know you are wrestling with the newly found notion of job vs. life fulfillment. May I suggest you spend more energy exploring life fulfillment? You will thank me in ten years.</p>
<p>I'm afraid you two give life to the phrase: "the inmates have taken over the asylum". Where are your parents in all of this? Where is your mentoring? Why do you have no clue about the real world?</p>
<p>You still haven't answered my questions. The same qualities you mention - character and intelligence - can be found more at ivy league and other top schools that medicore/average universities. So do you actually want me to believe that everyone going to top schools is bascially wasting their money when they could succeed elsewhere? I think it is foolish to think that an ASU grad will have equal job opportunities than a HYP grad. </p>
<p>I find your posts EXTREMELY insulting to those who have worked very hard to gain admission to top schools. You are basically belittling their achievements and mocking them for spending so much money on their education. And more importantly, why do you generalize that all students at top schools are arrogant and so full of themselves?</p>
<p>MightyNick --</p>
<p>I applaud that you have worked extremely hard, but to have done so simply to "gain admission to top schools" is short sighted. You have trained yourself to do your very best -- to excel -- to set high standards and attain them. These are all qualities that separate you from most people, and will take you far in life. No harm that the reason you developed these skills is not in the end relevant. Keep working hard! Whether you keep working hard at Emory, or Northwestern, or Ohio St. or as you put, Arizona St, is not relevant!</p>
<p>I do not mock you -- I am intending to disabuse you of a romantic notion! Do you not see that? You carry an unnecessary burden that serves no purpose. By your thinking, you're handicapped at Michigan vs. a person who is at an elite private college! This is not the case at all!</p>
<p>I realize I've had experiences you have not yet had that have led me to this conclusion. I have attended both Stanford and UCLA (MBA). I have worked in F500 companies, and run my own business. I have been around the block a few times. Rather than trying to convince you, why don't you read the book Harvard, Schmarvard, so that we can discuss specifics regarding the importance of elite colleges to your future success.</p>
<p>Post your impressions here, and I will be happy to dialogue with you.</p>
<p>
[quote]
No harm that the reason you developed these skills is not in the end relevant. Keep working hard! Whether you keep working hard at Emory, or Northwestern, or Ohio St. or as you put, Arizona St, is not relevant!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So what is your advice to the ambitious young high school kid who got into Wharton/Stern/Ross who plans on working at a F500 company like yours? Should he dish out the $$$ (probably 180-200K for the 4 years) and go to an elite school or go to ASU honors with a scholarship? Are you experienced enough to say that he will get the same kind of connections at ASU that he will at Wharton? Do you think I am naive enough to believe that while applying for job/internship, a student from ASU will stand out as much as a student from Wharton, assuming both have little work experience? </p>
<p>What you are saying is true once you start working. 10 years (or heck, even 5 years) after your first job no one cares about where you went. Even I know that and I don't need a senior executive of a F500 company telling me that. Your post only mocks students that are in top schools.</p>
<p>Edit: I do not think I am handicapped at Michigan. However, I've had countless people tell me I should have gone to my state U rather than Michigan and saved a bunch of money. Why should a hardworking student pass up an opportunity to go to a better school where the chances of him/her succeeding are better than if he went to a lesser school? I admit I'm paying 3.5x the tuition, but I also get to go to a better business school (Michigan vs RU). According to your logic, I will have the same chances of getting a top notch job from RU as well as Michigan!</p>
<p>On the flip side, I find your post, MightyNick, to be EXTREMELY insulting to those of us who attend 'mediocre/average' universities, who overwhelmingly lack intelligence, and spend most of our time--according to e<em>a</em>d "just get ****faced every night of the week and skip every class."</p>
<p>
[quote]
who overwhelmingly lack intelligence, and spend most of our time--according to e<em>a</em>d "just get ****faced every night of the week and skip every class."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>EAD said that, not me. I never said people at mediocre/average universities lack intelligence. By that I meant universities that are not well known/not prestigious.</p>
<p>And so what?</p>