<p>How you you think The College of New Jersey (TCNJ) measure up with the NESCAC schools? In terms of expenses, its cost is half of that of the NESCACs. I think it's admission standard is as high or pretty close to the NESCACs. TCNJ is public and may lean more toward pre-professional and less liberal arts oriented (which may not be a bad thing for my S). Do you think the quality of education, the overall college experience and the prestige factor are comproble with each other? How about job opportunity after graduation or applying to graduation school, is TCNJ as highly regarded as the NESCACs?</p>
<p>Could you list the NESCAC schools? What TCNJ lacks in prestige, it makes up for with high-quality students. Many in-state academic stars take the merit money. They're doing merit money differently now, including a new required essay component, with state budget cuts an ever-looming problem. What type of effect that will have on the college as a whole is unknown at this time.</p>
<p>No, I don't think TCNJ is really in the same class. It is not just a matter of prestige but of overall ambience. Certainly it can't come close to the top NESCAC schools which I would consider to Amherst and Williams, and (slightly below them) Middlebury and Bowdoin. I also don't think it can compare to Bates or Colby unless finances are the defining factor in attending TCNJ. I don't know as much about Trinity/Connecticut/Hamilton/Tufts (although I did visit Hamilton with my D several years ago) but would not expect to find TCNJ superior, though perhaps it might be equal academically in some respects. I am aware that TCNJ has some good DIII athletic programs but I think the sum of the parts would give the edge very much to most if not all NESCAC schools</p>
<p>Asking any small public to compete quality and rep wise with $40K plus Nescac schools is putting them in an untenable position. The money is different. The kids are different. Although I researched TCNJ and considered their old merit structure the ultimate financial safety for D (full-ride) I can't say that I seriously considered it as a direct rival to the Nescac schools. It is an excellent value school and it will serve its students well.</p>
<p>But Nescac is pretty much the cream of the LAC crop.</p>
<p>Lots of top NJ kids have headed there over the last few years. My niece is a frosh there on a full ride. She had great stats & snuck in with the last guaranteed class of financially supported kids. NJ is tanking in terms of our budget woes, so I wonder how many top kids will go there without the terrific scholarships for merit. Niece applied there early decision & didn't send out another application anywhere. Definitely the least stressful college choice process I've heard of yet. She is a great kid who was considerate of her parents' financial limitations, as they have twin boys following right after her. Ouch!</p>
<p>the 11 NESCAC schools are:</p>
<p>Williams
Amherst</p>
<p>Tufts
Wesleyan
Bowdoin
Middlebury</p>
<p>Connecticut College
Trinity College
Bates
Colby
Hamilton</p>
<p>I think if you are asking about the quality of education and the overall college experience, there is a good chance that TCNJ - and several other schools - compare favorably with the NESCACs. Perhaps not as much geographic diversity, but then again when my S was at Bates, he found New Yorkers to be a pretty good share of the student body ;).</p>
<p>If you are asking about prestige, which is closely related to name recognition, I don't think you can compare it at all to the NESCACs.</p>
<p>Now, you also have to think about how "close to home" the college graduate plans to live and work. When you leave the hallowed halls of College Confidential, where everything is all-college-admissions-all-the-time, and you leave a specific geographic region, you will find plenty of folks who've never heard of a Bates or a Hamilton. Heck, mini will be glad to tell you how many eyes he's seen glaze over when he mentions his alma mater of Williams.</p>
<p>So if a kid is going to stay around New Jersey, especially in fields where there might be a strong alum network, the prestige might begin to equate. JMHO.</p>
<p>In response to jmmom and as a general expansion on my earlier comment, I would have to say that TCNJ is not especially prestigious within the New Jersey community in the way that a NESCAC school (or at least one of the more highly regarded NESCAC schools) would be in its own geographical area. Neither is Rutgers; it is a remarkably unappreciated state university (and a pretty decent one). I am not thinking in specifically CC terms but in affluent NJ suburban "good-school-district" terms because once you get out of that realm in New Jersey prestige does not apply in the same degree, whether in the NYC area or the Philadelphia area. </p>
<p>Arguably, TCNJ is to William and Mary as Rutgers is to UVa--way down the prestige chain even within its own state as well as outside it. Good NJ students who want to go to a good state liberal arts school and live in NJ might strive to get into W and M. If they want a great truly small school they look at the standard elite LACs, most of which are NESCAC or in PA. If they want a great state university with elegant trappings or a semblance of prestige, they aspire to UVa; for safety they think about Michigan. When they choose TCNJ or Rutgers it is usually for financial reasons. At the next level down in terms of student achievement, that changes, and then perhaps TCNJ and Rutgers become more aspirational, but the duiscussion hinged on prestige as well as eeducational value.</p>
<p>In terms of employment, a plain-vanilla employer probably isn't going to care whether a degree is from TCNJ or Bowdoin; an elite sort of place probably will, and that's the kind of palce where people are more likely to have heard of the LACs. Gradute and professional schools will look at grades and LSATS/GRE/MCAT, and professorial connections.</p>
<p>I see very different choices at my d's all-girl NJ Catholic. The class of '06 (about 120 girls) gained admission to 9 of the NESCACs. Yet girls are only attending Connecticut & Tufts. Turned down Williams, Midd, Bates, Wes, Colby, Trinity, & Hamilton. Girls were also admitted to MIT, Yale, Princeton, Harvard, Brown, Notre Dame, Georgetown, Duke, Reed, Columbia, USC, U Virg, U Texas, U Chicago, Swat, Emory, Bryn M, Oberlin, Julliard, Davidson, Berkeley, Vassar, Smith, Wash U. Yet not a single girl is attending. But they have chosen to attend TCNJ, Rutgers, Cornell, NYU, Northwestern, U Penn, CMC, Fairfield, Wm & Mary, Lehigh. </p>
<p>Now, I can't say the same girl is turning down U Va in favor or TCNJ or Rutgers. But I hear that parents are simply fed up with costs. A good portion of the student body is very wealthy or upper middle class. They aren't getting a dime in financial aid & merit is limited at many top schools. So they are turning the full-pay schools down & taking merit at schools that offer it. (I didn't check for merit info at every one of the rejected schools, so there may be some who do offer $$$ for merit.) These are girls who have parents in a wide variety of NY/NJ metropolitan Fortune 100 companies. Not what you'd call plain-vanilla. They don't seem to be worrying that their girls' employment chances will be greatly harmed if her school isn't extremely prestigious.</p>
<p>At any rate, who really knows?</p>
<p>stickershock, This came to my mind as I was reading the list of schools that were turned down, even before you stated:</p>
<p>"But I hear that parents are simply fed up with costs."</p>
<p>I can certainly see why. How many upper middle class in NJ can afford full freight? Jeez, our property taxes, auto insurance, medical insurance in this state are challenging enough. The higher cost of living does not seem to be considered for aid. </p>
<p>Our kids attend a public school in NJ. I am seeing a similar pattern. Many kids from our hs are attending schools that were safeties, rather than matches/reaches. Also many are choosing public universities (Delaware with merit aid, Rutgers, they strive for TCNJ but too few are accepted, cheaper southern state schools, private safety schools, and so many public instate schools that were safety schools-Montclair, WP, Stockton, etc.).</p>
<p>"I can certainly see why. How many upper middle class in NJ can afford full freight?"</p>
<p>Roughly 3% of the U.S. population (which makes up around half the student population at the prestige schools, plus or minus a little). In other words, lots and lots and lots of them. How they do it is beyond me, but they do. (median income of full-freight customers at the prestige schools does vary, but from what I can figure out is generally around $225k, give or take.)</p>
<p>Mini, maybe a combo of debt and more debt for the student and parents, as well as the lucky few who were born with a silver spoon and are getting the dough from wealthy grandpa/grandma/Aunt Suzie, and Uncle Bill (who did not have any kids, or have plenty to go around).</p>
<p>If the median income of the full-freighters is around $225k, it means that a full half of them come from families earning between $160k-$225k. I suspect that in many of these families, the parents (not the students, but the parents) take out loans or spend down their IRAs or remortgage the house (which is why figures detailing levels of student indebtedness as a measure of a college's generosity are grossly misleading. MORE student indebtedness generally speaking means they are accepting poorer students and are being more generous, and parents can't handle the loans. There are exceptions of course.)</p>
<p>I know of one single mom in So. Cal with four sons - two Princetons, a Hamliton, and a Wesleyan, spaced around 2-3 years apart. Her income is around $180k, and she received virtually no grants for any of them (just some small loans offered.) But she'd bought the house for $175k when she'd gotten married (around 1986). Each time a kid entered college, she remortgaged the house (now worth maybe $1.3 mil.) When the last one graduates (this year), she plans to sell the house, pay the mortgage, and is purchasing a $390k condo. The college educations turned out to be totally free!</p>
<p>Works for some, not for others. It is "worth" it? That's in the eyes of the person doing the valuing. I'd never do it, but I don't have the dough to begin with.</p>
<p>Well, I agree with much of what you all are saying, but I don't think you should get too carried away with the
[quote]
lucky few who were born with a silver spoon and are getting the dough from wealthy grandpa/grandma/Aunt Suzie, and Uncle Bill (who did not have any kids, or have plenty to go around).
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I know you didn't mean it harshly, northeastmom. But allow me to present you with a different scenario. We were one of the families that I would call upper-middle class type, professionals, yada yada who nevertheless opted for the good merit school over a full-pay situation. Because it was the kid's first choice and because the merit and "courting" that went along with it made it even more exciting to him and it certainly appealed to us. </p>
<p>Now, with Tulane's phase-out of his major, we enter a different world. Merit $$ aren't there to the same degree for transfer students. One school who gave him decent aid as a freshman applicant gave him none this time around. Only one of 12 schools he applied to offered aid, it was a fairly small amount and the school was far down his list of preferred schools. He was admitted to one of his top two choices, an "elite," and there he goes now with us as full pay. Meanwhile, we are also footing the bill for the gap between what my step-grandS qualifies for at his in-state flagship (including Pell) and what it costs.</p>
<p>Are we among the lucky few? Yes. Were we born with silver spoons? No. We had great educations, great careers and once highly paid ones. We made education a priority from the moment our kid was born. Designated my IRA savings lo these many years ago for that purpose. We made lifestyle choices and sacrifices all along, and a few more of those in these actual pay-out years. We once had the type of income mini speculates about in post #11, but not now. Are we grandparents who are helping out our grandkid? Yes. But we are not so wealthy that we don't feel it, compromise for it and we <em>do</em> have our own kids.</p>
<p>It probably hurts us in the pocketbook just about the same as it hurts maybe you and many others (I don't know your exact financial situation obviously). We are older parents (obviously ;)). DH came partially out of retirement to do all of this and I have postponed my originally planned retirement date.</p>
<p>We do it out of love and because it's important and because we want to. But please don't think it's like allowing a penny to lie on the ground because it means nothing to us.</p>
<p>Just my rant and, I hope, a little perspective.</p>
<p>Same here; not silver spoon types at all, but education in all its many levels and experiences is very important to us and I do believe there may well be a difference worth paying for between Smith and Fairfield or Wes and Lehigh and so on and so on. I must also observe that StickerShock's story re her D's Catholic girls' school may be virtually unique among affluent nonpublic (and indeed many public) schools in NJ and other metro suburban areas. (Anyone looking at the published lists of where kids are accepted and attending will find that many more are accepted at some schools than attend them but that it may be because of multiple acceptances and the reality that you can only matriculate at one place.)</p>
<p>jmmom, I wrote a lengthy post, but it did not get posted. Oh, well. I really do need to get off the board. Just want you to know that I have followed your posts through the years. I hope that your S is as happy now as he was at Tulane. Briefly, I was trying to state a reason why some upper middle class can afford these privates and others cannot. Some relatives help, some don't, and others require help from family. That is just how it is. Mini came up with another scenerio, but if the monthly payment cannot be made, it also does not work out.</p>
<p>jmmom, I'm sad to hear about the major being eliminated. You'll be poorer, but it's never the wrong decision to do the right thing. Seems like many of us may be postponing retirement with these nutty college costs looming!</p>
<p>mattmom, I was assuming the same thing -- that a genius or two had multiple ivy acceptances & could only matriculate at one. But when I was looking over the list at the open house, the school social worker chatted with me & said that the acceptances were spread around. In past years, I've seen the acceptances listed with a number after each school, so you can see if multiple girls got in to any particular school. That hasn't been posted yet, and I imagine there is some overlap. Another factor might be the Catholic factor. Lots of girls from Catholic h.s. (and their parents) tend to view a Catholic college more favorably. Thus a Fairfield picked over Smith, or whatever. Boston College, Catholic U., Loyola, Villanova -- very popular with girls who could qualify elsewhere. I was just surprised by the number of girls hapily choosing to attend schools lower in the rankings.</p>
<p>Stickershock, There is also the issue of being able to meet the required gpa to keep a merit award. Some students could get cold feet when thinking about attending a reach, or even match school when a family really requires that merit award to make that school affordable.</p>
<p>Well, as I've said before, if you live like your income is 70,000, but make 160,000, then you can afford full freight and not have rich uncles, loans, remortgages, or anything else. Since most of the country has to do that (because that's all that they make, or less) it seemed to us to be doable. We only had the six figure income for a comparatively short time, (and we don't have it now), so we saved for college during that time by living like we didn't.</p>
<p>Yes, we're strange. I'm not saying everyone should do that. Just that it's possible.</p>
<p>Exactly, garland. Exactly. And if you have that kind of income for a decent part of your career, you can live like $100K and still put a good chunk away for your priorities. Like I say, we are lucky. But we were not "to the manor born."</p>