Does UVA have something against TJHSST

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Virginia
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<p>My Two or more cents</p>

<p>1 - someone said this</p>

<p>“you’d better be prepared to rise to the occasion.”</p>

<p>There seems to be an impression that every TJ kid is there for a competitive fight. There are some kids at TJ with very high IQs, very intellectual, quirky, but with ADHD or similar LD’s. Our experience is that they can have a very difficult time fitting at elsewhere in FCPS (including GT) - TJ really is the place for them socially and intellectually.</p>

<p>Yes, kids like that and their parents accept that they will usually not make it to the ivies. What gets the goat of some of us is that our kid is disadvantage at UVA, a school our tax dollars pay for, BECAUSE our kid wouldn’t fit in well at a base school. </p>

<p>And yes, the numbers on admitted students don’t reflect the self selection. The impression of a bias against TJ, deters some TJ students from even applying. At some point you can only find the time senior year to apply to so many schools, and you have to strategize. </p>

<p>And yes, non AP classes at TJ and base schools are not comparable. DD has compared notes with kids at base schoools. Many TJ regular courses are close to AP courses elsewhere in how they are taught. And my impression is even the AP courses are harder. DD got C in BC calc, but got a 5 on the AP exam. I personally doubt very much she would have gotten that C at a base school. </p>

<p>DD is now deciding between two private, out of state, “new ivies”. I am sure she will get a good education at either, and so at that level I am not unhappy and would not have whined had I not seen this. Indeed, I think being at TJ helped her at the schools she got into, as they certainly want TJ students. </p>

<p>But lets just say, next time UVA budget is before the state legislature, I am not going to be upset if it gets cut. (and yeah, I know there are folks who feel the same way about TJ, but the comparability of those issues is a different debate) </p>

<p>If our impressions of UVA admissions was wrong, well UVA has some marketing work to do at TJ.</p>

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<p>"That’s the BEST public university in the nation, and one of the best overall. At NO other school even remotely close to the quality of UVA will you hear of over half the senior grade of a single high school being accepted. "</p>

<p>Which is kind of a trick question, you know? New York State does not HAVE a public univ equivalent to UVA. If it did, Stuy and Bronx Sci would probably do as well there.</p>

<p>There simply aren’t many states with BOTH a public university close to equivalent to UVA AND a magnet HS close to equivalent to TJ. </p>

<p>The issue needs to be addressed on its own terms, not by comparing to other states. Kind of the way adcons say they look at candidates, you know?</p>

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<p>"If the federal government was trying to say that UVA is bias against TJ students they would be laughed out of court with the only statistic that is true for this discussion. “68% of those who apply to UVA from TJ are accepted.” "</p>

<p>I wonder if you are familiar with the history of discrimination against Jews at Ivy League universities. I am not saying the issues are comparable, but some of the mathematical logic is analagous.</p>

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<p>Excuse me? The numbers don’t lie: 356 members of last year’s graduating class – what’s that, 80 percent? – applied to U-Va. It doesn’t look to me like a lot of TJ kids are “deterred from even applying” to U-Va.</p>

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<p>My kid was deterred. I know that for a fact.</p>

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<p>"Two people have the same SAT score, one is from TJHS, the other a first generation college applicant born of a single parent in the coal regions of SW Virginia. With equal scores, who do you accept? I accept the less privileged student who has done just as well given "</p>

<p>Two issues here. 1. What is the proper role of geographic balance at a selective state university. That is a big one, and not exclusive to the TJ/UVA relationship.</p>

<ol>
<li> There is an impression at TJ that TJ students are disadvantaged vis a vis Fairfax County base high schools - Langley, Woodson, Oakton, etc, etc. </li>
</ol>

<p>That may or may not be true. The only way to answer that with close to certainty would be to compare full applications, including GPA, SAT, and soft factors between TJ and the base schools, and look at the admits. Even then, you would still have the issue of GPA comparability. </p>

<p>Fact is though, if we were giving a recommendation to a kid who was deciding on TJ vs a base school, and they were otherwise indifferent between TJ and the base school (IE all other factors left them on the knife edge) and their principle goal was to attend UVA, I think most TJ parents would strongly suggest staying at the base school.</p>

<p>Some folks think TJ students are “privileged” enough. Some think they aren’t all that privileged. I think that stronly colors the reactions to the paragraph above.</p>

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<p>Can’t argue with that. But the overall numbers don’t suggest that a lot of kids are being deterred from applying, especially when one considers that U-Va isn’t primarily known as a science and engineering school. If anything it’s suprising that so many kids from TJ with a science and math interest even consider U-Va.</p>

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<p>the big private school draws for TJ are ivies across the board, not just tech oriented schools. </p>

<p>When you have such a strong, and such an inexpensive, option at your door you have to decide why NOT to apply to UVA. The only reasons are that you are aimed very squarely at a career direction where UVA is very weak, you don’t care about money at all (TJ has a few families like that, but less than some people think) or you don’t think you can get in. Or some combination. </p>

<p>I think that last factor matters to many of the TJ kids who did not apply, and there were enough of them to impact the numbers.</p>

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<p>I hear you, and I’d venture a guess that the majority of the 20 percent or so of TJ kids who don’t apply have good reason not to, and that more often than not it isn’t because they’re worried about not getting in. We’re in state and I’ve had a couple of kids go to U-Va. I also had one with a better record than the ones that went to U-Va and he didn’t even apply. He just knew it wasn’t a fit. I’m sure the same decision is made every year by TJ students.</p>

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<p>probably, but I am also sure that the decision my DD made, which was heavily influenced by her estimate of her chances relative to similarly ranked private schools, was not the first time a TJ student made that decision. And I think with an impression of the growing difficulty of getting into UVA overall, and with many stories of highly qualified TJ students being rejected, that number is probably higher in 2010 than it was in 2009, and maybe higher next year (which I know does not bear on the statistical issue at hand, but I think that issue has been well addressed elsewhere)</p>

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<p>I won’t disagree with that - but a case could certainly be made the TJ itself is over-privileged. Whenever some DC-area corporation wants to get some publicity with a donation, it goes to the already-embarrassingly over-endowed TJ, not some run-down DC or Arlington school who’d actually benefit most from the support. It reminds me of those billionaires who give hundreds of millions of dollars to Stanford or Harvard, instead of some cash-strapped state school. </p>

<p>It doesn’t help that TJ’s school administration actively attempts to suck all of the oxygen out of the room; I recall TJ’s principal loudly complaining at press conference about HHMI endowing Loudoun County high schools with college scholarship money, saying, in effect “Where’s our money? We have all the smart kids, we should get some of that, too” - never mind that TJ isn’t <em>in</em> Loudoun County. In this, and similar instances, TJ throws its weight around, depriving other schools of support and funding. While I support the idea of advanced education for worthy students, there needs to be a half dozen such magnet schools, not one monopoly that uses its prestige and influence to maintain its prestige and influence. </p>

<p>I don’t know what the cost-per-student at TJ is (and I’m sure it’s incalculable, anyway, given the ‘free’ corporate support), but I can say this – I’ll <em>never</em> feel sorry for a TJ student.</p>

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<p>U-Va accepted 244 TJ kids last year, which is more than half the class. Someone in a previous thread threw out that the average accepted TJ kid had a 1509 on the SAT while the average kid entolled at U-Va only had a 1326. They’re mixing apples and oranges because the average SAT score of students OFFERED a spot at U-Va is much higher than 1326. I’s closer to 1400. And the average SAT score at TJ is, what, 1450? You can do anything with statistics, but if the average SAT at TJ is 1450 and more than half the kids there are getting into U-Va, then the SAT gap between admitted students from other high schools and TJ isn’t nearly as wide as disgruntled TJ applicants think it is.</p>

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<p>Squiddy, you make a good point with one glaring exception: Arlington doesn’t have any “run down” schools! It is one of the wealthiest and highest performing school districts in the country, plus it sends students to TJ!</p>

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<p>The physical plant at TJ is in fact fairly rundown, even by Fairfax county standards. My DD who is interested in Arch, participated in sessions on the renovation of the building, which is being deferred and whittled down, IIUC.</p>

<p>As for Loudon, while TJ is not located there, they do in fact get a considerable number of students from Loudon County, so I don’t know exactly why a scholarship fund for Loudon county students should exclude those who attend TJ.</p>

<p>And when your DD’s teacher who was a mentor to her gets cut and goes off to Chantilly HS - when your kids schedule is tossed around repeatedly due to budget cuts - its hard to get all that excited that some big corp gave TJ a supercomputer. </p>

<p>Heck, lets take tech lab equipment as an example. My kid is doing CAD. We were at a college arch dept presentation this weekend, they were talking about their 3d printer. DD - ‘we have one of those at TJ - but its been broken for months’ Me - "I think the one here will be kept in good repair’</p>

<p>Again, there is a perception of privilege, that as often as not fails to match the reality.</p>

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<p>“I don’t know what the cost-per-student at TJ is (and I’m sure it’s incalculable, anyway, given the ‘free’ corporate support), but I can say this – I’ll <em>never</em> feel sorry for a TJ student”</p>

<p>The school is supported by the participating counties based, IIUC, on the SAME cost per student as an average FCPS school. As for the corporate support, of course it is in principle calculable, and IIUC, its not that large a part of the total budget. Yes, there are some really unique things in the tech labs - but the student teacher ratios, teacher salaries, etc are the same. And as I said above, the physical plant is not the best by far. </p>

<p>I think the key point is the last - perhaps you didnt mean it to sound the way it did - “I will never feel sorry for a TJ student”</p>

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<p>"While I support the idea of advanced education for worthy students, there needs to be a half dozen such magnet schools, not one monopoly that uses its prestige and influence to maintain its prestige and influence.
"</p>

<p>TJ’s principal previously worked at a magnet school in southern VA, so I doubt he wants a monopoly. I have never heard that sentiment expressed at TJ, by admin, parents or students.</p>

<p>In fact there are IB schools throughout the region.</p>

<p>Some people AT TJ think there should be an arts/humanities magnet. Though some think that would mean weakening the arts further at TJ, which my DD, for several reasons, thinks is a bad idea.</p>

<p>Its not about being worthy. Its about giving kids the environment and learning they NEED. We are happy to spend resources on LD, on ED, on all kinds of special needs. Highly gifted kids have their own special needs - they are not just a different set of numbers, many of them learn differently. </p>

<p>In some ways even TJ has a way to go in learning how best to deal with that population. I would be very concerned if an increase in the number of magnet schools was not simply an attempt to deal with those areas where TJ is weak (like arts/humanities) but instead resulted in diluting TJ into something more resembling the FCPS GT program.</p>

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<p>

Care to be specific? What marketing efforts would you suggest?</p>

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<p>dean J</p>

<p>First the impression</p>

<p>There is a widespread impression, that if there is not in fact a hard cap, there is in fact a comparative disadvantage applying to UVA from TJ rather than from a typical NoVa base high school, relative to the difficulties in applying elsewhere, particularly the “new ivies”.</p>

<p>More particularly, that UVA weights GPA more heavily relative to SAT than those new ivies do, and that, it acknowledges the greater difficulty of getting a high GPA at TJ (for any given apparently equivalent schedule - ie same number and quality of AP’s, etc) less than the new ivies do. </p>

<p>I am not sure the extent this is simply because UVA is more selective than the new Ivies. We spent more time talking to students not applying to old ivies and equivalents, or applying only to one or two as a reach, due to our daughter’s GPA (3.7 weighted)</p>

<p>While legitimalely UVA should have been a reach school, when looking at reach schools, DD said “if I can get into UVA, I can certainly get into X, which would be a better match” She ended up applying to three reach schools and getting WLed at one, WUSTL. We are pretty sure she would have been rejected at UVA, with the above said 3.7, 1480 SAT, a great essay, and normal EC’s. </p>

<p>I think many of the TJs (though of course not all) who did not apply to UVA share this impression. That the bottom quarter or so of the TJ class has little of no chance of acceptance at UVA, and will be rejected in favor of students who would have a lower chance than said student at many private universities.</p>

<p>How to change that, IF you want to, I do not know. I don’t suppose a marketing campaign aimed specifically at the bottom quarter of the TJ class would be feasible. I don’t think you can, with confidentiality concerns, really present the statistical comparison I outlined above. I suppose you could come onto campus and say “if you think you have a chance at X, Y and Z you should definitely apply to UVA, you do have a chance” or something like that, and hope the grape vine picks it up. Obviously talking to the GC helps, though my impression is that the GCs at TJ are particularly overwhelmed, and student use them less than at many other schools. </p>

<p>Or you simply try to address the impression that you weigh GPA more heavily than private schools do.</p>

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<p>^Lol, that’s true. I had the same reaction when I read that. Arlington Schools being categorized with DC schools! No way. Especially now that they are in the process of rebuilding each one of them into “green” state of the art complexes.</p>

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<p>Brooklynborndad,</p>

<p>From your last post, you seem to be suggesting that almost anyone who gets into TJ should automatically be admitted to U-Va four years later simply because tough classes and high SAT scores will be a given. This is unrealistic. As I said earlier, the average admitted student to U-Va from outside of TJ will also have very high test scores (near 1400 on the SAT) and at the same time will rank well within the top ten percent of their high school class. </p>

<p>While TJ is certainly a highly competitive high school full of very, very smart kids, there are many, many other excellent high schools in Northern Virginia with smart and highly motivated kids who, for one reason or another, might not have tested quite as well as another student did in the EIGHTH GRADE and thus didn’t or wouldn’t make the cut for TJ admissions. But there’s a lot of time between eighth grade and senior year of high school. It’s by no means a given (in fact, I’d say it’s unlikely) that the bottom quarter of the class at TJ would graduate at the top of the class at a neighborhood school, and that’s pretty much where you need to be to get into U-Va if you’re not from TJ.</p>