<p>By marketing campaign the poster means accept every TJ kid who applies to UVA, since TJ kids clearly ~deserve~ to go to UVA, instead of those ~dumb~ kids from the ~regular~ high schools around NOVA.</p>
<p>no that is NOT what I mean. </p>
<p>I made clear what I mean in my post above. Nor do I think kids at base schools in NoVa are dumb. I have not put words in your mouth, please do not put them in my mine. </p>
<p>Personally, as a citizen, I think TJ kids deserve the same chance at UVA that the kids from Langley, Oakton and Woodson get. If UVA weighs the difficulty of an AP course vs a non AP course, than by the same token they should weigh the difficulty of a non-AP course at TJ vs a non AP course at Oakton. Perhaps they already do. </p>
<p>As a parent, I can only recommend to TJ kids based on what I know. The only TJ kid whos choices I really influenced in any way were my DD’s. And it was HER inclination to choose not to apply to UVA. Had I believe otherwise about UVA than I do, I would have presented that information to her. But as it was, when push came to shove, when the app deadlines were upon us, when she had to decide what schools she could finish the apps on before midnight, and picking UVA would have mean displacing one of those new ivies farther down her list, I supported her decision to go with one more new ivy, cause I shared her sense that the chance vs fit ratio was less favorable at UVA, and particularly so cause ONE MORE TJ student is valued less at UVA. I supported her in that decision despite knowing what this will mean to me financially for the next 4 years (vs the chance that she would have gotten in)</p>
<p>And obviously, no dumb kids are going to UVA (well not from NoVa, certainly). Its more the vanilla gifted kids who thrive at the base schools, some of whom could have gotten into TJ, but chose not to cause they didn’t want to be with the “weird” kids, vs, well, the weird kids.</p>
<p>brooklynborndad, </p>
<ol>
<li><p>If your daughter wanted to apply to UVA and decided for some reason not to based on what she perceived to be her chances of getting in she made a huge mistake. If she wanted to go she should have applied. Dean J and her fellow admits make that call; not you, me or anyone else. We had several students who were told by their guidance counselors to “not bother” applying to their dream school. Some of them got in anyway.</p></li>
<li><p>Every year people with excellent scores and GPAs get rejected at UVA and other top schools. I’m sure everyone on this board has an example of a stellar candidate not getting into UVA, Duke, UPenn, etc. The rejection thing is not unique in any way to TJ students. It happens to the best and brightest all over the country and Virginia. If you are looking for agreement that sometimes great students don’t get into their top schools then I agree. If you are saying that UVA caps admit from the best high school in the country I’m sorry but I guess we will have to just disagree.</p></li>
<li><p>If you can find a school with a higher percentage of admits to UVA in Virginia let me know and I’ll reconsider. As you no doubt know there are several excellent Governors Schools in Virginia (full of students that would probably get into TJ but can’t because they don’t live in a feeder district) and they don’t approach a 68% admit rate. That is why the title of this thread is ridiculous.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Gary</p>
<ol>
<li><p>My daughter had a difficult academic schedule (she goes to TJ after all) and active ECs. And is ADHD. She did not have infinite time to apply to every school that somewhat interested her. As it was she applied to nine, (plus a gap year program AND a special program at one of the schools she applied to) and spent quite a lot of time on the application process. In fact I was encouraging her to apply to more, and she did not think it was worth it, as she strained to write one more supplemental essay under time pressure. Your opinion that students should not strategize, but leave it to admissions to decide where they get in, does not take time constraints in account.</p></li>
<li><p>I will take the UVA administrations word that there is no hard cap on TJ students. I have seen nothing here that contradicts my belief that it is harder for the typical TJ student to get into UVA from TJ than it would have been from their base school. And that that is NOT the case when applying to most comparable private universities</p></li>
<li><p>As has been demonstrated on many occasions, that percentage is not relevant. The number of Jews admitted to Harvard in the 1920’s relative to population was undoubtedly higher than for any other religious denomination. Yet there WAS a hard cap on admissions. The question is what would the pct of TJ admits have been had they been treated “fairly” howsoever we define that. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>I am sure the other governors schools do a fine job. But which ones have the same SAT scores, the same scores on AP exams, the same admittance rates to private universities, etc? I think we all realize that TJ is in a class by itself, at least with in VA.</p>
<p>Brooklynborndad, if you don’t mind my asking, where else was your daughter accepted to besides Lehigh and RPI? Was she accepted to any college with U-Va admission’s standards?</p>
<p>
This impression comes from you, not us. I’ve been working with TJ students for a decade and what’s more, I know the school’s guidance staff and Career Center Specialist are extremely knowledgeable about our process. Despite multiple experts providing good information, some people (I think it must be some parents because the kids seem to get it) choose to believe and perpetuate the myth of a quota. </p>
<p>
We do not have weighting in our review process. There are no charts, rubrics, points, or equations in public school admission. </p>
<p>My blog is pretty clear about how GPA is used:
[Notes</a> from Peabody: The UVA Application Process: Let’s talk about GPAs](<a href=“http://uvaapplication.blogspot.com/2010/01/lets-talk-about-gpas.html]Notes”>Notes from Peabody: The UVA Application Process: Let's talk about GPAs)</p>
<p>
Are you saying UVa should admit students whose performance landed them in the bottom 25% of their high school class? </p>
<p>
Admission officers don’t play “what if” when reviewing applications. We look at how a student performed at their school. We don’t guess about what a student might have done if they had attended a different school.</p>
<p>"This impression comes from you, not us. I’ve been working with TJ students for a decade and what’s more, I know the school’s guidance staff and Career Center Specialist are extremely knowledgeable about our process. Despite multiple experts providing good information, some people (I think it must be some parents because the kids seem to get it) choose to believe and perpetuate the myth of a quota. "</p>
<p>As I said above, I will take your word for it that there is no “hard cap” . I was speaking more of relative difficulty. </p>
<p>"Quote:
More particularly, that UVA weights GPA more heavily relative to SAT </p>
<p>"We do not have weighting in our review process. There are no charts, rubrics, points, or equations in public school admission. "</p>
<p>I will accept your word that your admissions process, like those of private universities you compete with, is holistic. I am not positing that you plug numbers into a spreadsheet. Do YOU deny that different universities, in their holistic processes, emphasize some factors more than others? </p>
<p>"Quote:
That the bottom quarter or so of the TJ class has little of no chance of acceptance at UVA </p>
<p>Are you saying UVa should admit students whose performance landed them in the bottom 25% of their high school class? "</p>
<p>It is not my job to tell UVA whom they should or should not admit, what their overall level of difficulty should be, nor what elements they should emphasize in determining who adds to the UVA student body. I AM saying that many, if not MOST, students in the bottom quarter of their class at TJ, will add value to SOME selective university. One that will look at them holistically, seeing past their GPA, and looking at the level of difficulty of their course load, including the “TJ factor”. And that those students, at least mine and some of her friends’ think that UVA’s approach, while it may be holistic, is different enough that its not worth applying to, at least not when your time is finite and you have other choices. Perhaps I am misreading the tone of your question, but it sounds VERY much to me like their impression is correct. </p>
<p>"Quote:
I have seen nothing here that contradicts my belief that it is harder for the typical TJ student to get into UVA from TJ than it would have been from their base school. </p>
<p>Admission officers don’t play “what if” when reviewing applications. We look at how a student performed at their school. We don’t guess about what a student might have done if they had attended a different school. "</p>
<p>I am trying to find a way to phrase what I mean that will help you understand. I am certain (though perhaps some here are not) that my DD’s GPA would have been higher at Woodson or Oakton than it was at TJ. AFAICT given average GPA’s at the schools she was accepted at or WLed at, the admissions officers at those schools either DID manage to figure that out, OR they placed a much higher emphasis on SAT, essay, etc than I believed. And several of them have told me to my face that they are aware of the difficulty level of TJ courses. I do not think they were dissimulating by a mental reservation - that they understood the difficulty and thought it was the same - the clear implication was that they thought it was harder, and that their decisions reflected that. </p>
<p>I thank you for your time, but your statements and questions in the above post simply reinforce my view of the TJ/UVA issue. 1. That you seem to find it odd that I think someone in the bottom quarter of the TJ class could be qualified for UVA, and that you seem, based on your last statement, to unwilling or unable to consider the possibility that different high schools in virginia are more less difficult to obtain a given GPA in.</p>
<p>brooklynborndad,</p>
<p>You may be right that your daughter’s GPA and class rank might have been higher at Woodson or Oakton, but as I said earlier the large majority of accepted students from those schools were ranked in the top 10 percent of their classes or higher. How can you be so certain that your daughter’s performance would have been THAT much better in either of those schools? Both have many outstanding and highly motivated students. I have little doubt that the top students at either school could easily do better than the bottom quarter of the class at TJ. The chasm is less wide than you appear to think.</p>
<p>No Novaparent, I am not suggest that every kid who gets into TJ should have an automatic in at UVA. Thats a straw man, that many have put in my mouth, but its not my opinion. </p>
<p>(BTW, you do realize that getting in 8th grade is no assurance you will stay there? If you get below a 3.0 GPA you are forced out, and that is one thing that makes bottom quartile there very different from bottom quartile elsewhere)</p>
<p>Here is my working hypothesis:</p>
<p>Take a typical bottom quartile TJ kid. With say a 3.7 or 3.8 weighted GPA, 1400 to 1500 SATS, several hard AP’s, a full roster of EC’s, a thoughtful essay. </p>
<p>Take a student of similar personality, intelligence, and work ethic. Who will likely have 4.0 or slightly higher GPA. </p>
<p>At your typical selective to very selective private university, the TJ kid will have the same chance as the base school kid. What that chance will be, will vary from school to school of course.</p>
<p>OTOH at UVA, given that pairing, the base school kid will have a higher chance than the TJ kid. The base school kids will not have a 100% chance, and perhaps the TJ kid will not have a zero chance. But the TJ’s kids chance will be lower.</p>
<p>Whether that meets universal standards of justice or not, is not the question I am addressing, as it involves many different potential questions (I assume any UVA phil major could explain why this cannot be answered easily) I AM saying that that is a widespread impression at TJ, it (logically) impacts where TJ kids apply, and IF its a matter of concern at UVA (which it may well not be, given Dean J’s question to me if I think they really should take kids from the bottom quarter of a class) they might want to find a way to address it.</p>
<p>“You may be right that your daughter’s GPA and class rank might have been higher at Woodson or Oakton, but as I said earlier the large majority of accepted students from those schools were ranked in the top 10 percent of their classes or higher. How can you be so certain that your daughter’s performance would have been THAT much better in either of those schools? Both have many outstanding and highly motivated students. I have little doubt that the top students at either school could easily do better than the bottom quarter of the class at TJ. The chasm is less wide than you appear to think”</p>
<p>well first right off the bat, theres no one with below a 3.0 at TJ. My impression, though I haven’t checked lately, is that there are kids with lower GPAs at base schools, including Woodson and Oakton. But that only gets to the GPA-class rank anomaly. I am suggesting a performance/GPA anomaly. I have not checked the GPAs of the kids my DD went to middle and elementary school with. I have discussed the physics curriculum with her, and she is adamant that what she learned in regular Physics at TJ matched the AP curriculum of kids she knows at base schools, to the point where she is upset she didn’t go ahead and take the AP test after taking regular physics, as she thinks that would get her out of a required class next year. OTOH one would expect a difference like to be strongest in the sciences. And in math, where, as I said above, her AP score of 5 matched to a C for the year. </p>
<p>and again, I have not precisely quantified the TJ factor (from the above, its clearly difficult to quantify). I am pretty sure its non-zero. That its large enough, when you its almost midnight on Jan 15th, and its “which reach school should I try for, UVA or Cornell?” it swings the choice.</p>
<p>With JMU and Virginia Tech in the same state, it really doesn’t matter. Just go to VT. Now that VT is opening its own med school, you might find that getting into to med school will be easier from Blacksburg than Charlottesville.
In this state, and with the quality of VT and JMU, a rejection from UVA is nothing to get the least bit agitated about ,since you do have other outstanding options.</p>
<p>so, on the one hand
"We do not have weighting in our review process. There are no charts, rubrics, points, or equations in public school admission. "</p>
<p>and on the other hand
“Are you saying UVa should admit students whose performance landed them in the bottom 25% of their high school class”</p>
<p>So you have no formula, its a holistic process, but you are certain that being in the bottom quartile of a high school class, without regard to anything else (including the nature of the school) is an absolute bar to admission?</p>
<p>I leave it to the gentle reader to form their own conclusion.</p>
<p>School rank is certainly very important for UVA. I suppose they have to rely on numbers to a fair extent because as a state school they don’t have the resources (especially with 22000 apps to review) to process apps as “holistically” as some private school.</p>
<p>"School rank is certainly very important for UVA. I suppose they have to rely on numbers to a fair extent because as a state school they don’t have the resources (especially with 22000 apps to review) to process apps as “holistically” as some private school. "</p>
<p>I would be very understanding of that explanation. Resources are certainly finite. OTOH what I get here from most folks is “ooh, TJ kids are snooty and think they DESERVE whatever they want” And from Dean J, I get answers to questions I did not ask - the constant reiteration of “we don’t have a cap” and “we have lots of TJ kids, we know them and love them well” neither of which logically contradict what you and I have said. Even hint that their approach is MORE formulaic than private schools, or that it is at all formulaic, and you get defensiveness.</p>
<p>If you are in the bottom 25% of TJ, simply don’t apply to UVA. UVA is not going to fill its whole class from one high school, even if it is the best one in the country, no more than Harvard Law School is going to fill its entire class with Harvard College graduates. Just move on and use your $60 elsewhere.</p>
<p>"School rank is certainly very important for UVA. " and the logical conclusion, the one with real world decision making implications for HS seniors, is that IF your class rank is NOT a good picture of you, which I would say is true for almost everyone in the bottom half of their class at TJ, than, if and when it comes down to a choice between UVA and one more private univ, its wise to go for the private univ, unless you are sure you cannot afford a suitable private univ, in which case its wise to apply to other public schools in VA and apply to UVA as a lark, at most.</p>
<p>
This is the first time qualified has come up in this discussion, that I have seen.</p>
<p>[url=<a href=“http://uvaapplication.blogspot.com/2010/03/note-of-thanks.html]Time[/url”>Notes from Peabody: The UVA Application Process: A note of thanks]Time[/url</a>] and [url=<a href=“http://uvaapplication.blogspot.com/2010/02/q-with-dean-j-part-1.html]again[/url”>Notes from Peabody: The UVA Application Process: Q&A with Dean J, part 1]again[/url</a>], I have stated that most of our applicants are qualified. Most of our applicants are perfectly capable of coming here and doing well if they work hard. However, admission at highly selective schools is not a meritocracy. All qualified students don’t get admitted when there are 22,500 applications and 6,000 offers to get a class of 3,240. </p>
<p>
You brought up rank and you answered my question attempting to clarify your statement with a question. </p>
<p>Like many districts these days, FCPS do not report rank, so we don’t know where a student falls in the class when we’re reading their application. Guidance staff report the GPA scale in use, the weighting of the different courses, and the highest and lowest GPA in the class that year.</p>
<p>"Just move on and use your $60 elsewhere. "</p>
<p>exactly. that’s what we did. Some people take umbrage at this though.</p>
<p>dean J</p>
<p>Just to remind you, you asked ME for suggestion wrt marketing. that I should clarify and be more specific.</p>
<p>I tried to give you information, on the impressions that are held at TJ, and even on ways to address them. Politely.</p>
<p>I do not feel you are taking them as sympathetic, positive suggestions. If you are really not interested in my opinion, please say so. My kid has a difficult (but good!) decision in the next couple of weeks, and other than as a citizen of the Commonwealth, I no longer have a dog in this fight. I will move on.</p>
<p>If you ARE interested in my opinions, and think they can be of use to you, I would suggest you read my opinions holisticallty, and try to see what I am getting at, and not pick them apart word by word.</p>
<p>in response to YOUR request, I made my remark about the bottom quartile, and about “being qualified” allow me to rephrase that. (I am curious why, if rank does not matter, you asked me the question, even in response to my initial mention of rank) </p>
<p>I suspect, that there are students at TJ with GPA’s, that, in the context of TJ, would suggest to an admissions officer “bottom quartile” and which are lower than UVA usually accepts, who would be at least as good additions to the UVA class as one more top student at a base school. They might not add to the diversity of high schools attended, would add more to intellectual diversity, diversity of interests, etc.</p>
<p>In fact I would suggest that the bottom quartile (or however you call it) at TJ adds an element that is found NEITHER in the top of the base schools, nor in the top quartile at TJ. A difference in learning style. I think such students would be great additions to a campus. But not every campus is alike, I suppose, or has the same needs.</p>
<p>Now, I realize that diversity of high schools attended, and any other factors that that is proxy for, are a consideration. That a TJ student adds diversity of HS attended at a new Ivy, but not at UVA. So maybe the issue is just the wording of the thread title, in terms of dislike or whatever.</p>