<p>My D applied to several schools in theater (for fall '05), got accepted at some schools (though not in her preferred major), was waitlisted at 2 schools (preferred major), and ultimately not accepted from the waitlist. For two years she's been throwing out comments from time to time like - "I don't really want to go to college". Not getting accepted into her major has reinforced that feeling. </p>
<p>She now wants to apply to acting schools in NYC for fall '06. She has a theater internship and acceptance to an acting company for this summer, and her plans for the fall are to audition and perform locally as much as possible, keep training, and work part-time. She has identified one acting school in particular in NYC that she wants to attend (but of course there is no dorm, etc and it's just a certificate program). </p>
<p>I have no idea how to evaluate this plan. I don't know if she's making a mistake by attending acting school rather than getting a college degree. I can't even judge if she'd be able to transfer into a BFA program after one or two years in acting school if she decided to do that. She'd have to transfer as a sophomore or junior since a lot of her college funds would have been used up on acting school fees for the first 1-2 years. I'm not crazy about the idea of her moving to NY and finding housing and living on her own at 19. </p>
<p>On the other hand, I want to help give her the wings to do what she really wants to do...</p>
<p>And my bias (since I'm at a college/uni myself) is that smart talented kids should be in college at this age. I'd love to hear that I'm wrong. </p>
<p>Would love comments if anyone has any...this is a strange thread to have on COLLEGE confidential, but ????</p>
<p>The world is a far more competitive place than it was when I was growing up. And, the opportunities that were available for non-college grads in the early '70's do not exist today. </p>
<p>I didn't think I needed college either. After taking 2 weeks of junior college classes, I dropped out. I was doing radio news, already had a job and didn't think I needed college. In the short term, that was correct. Even though I had a great run in my chosen field, it did not last forever. Thank goodness I have strong sales skills.</p>
<p>When I was a high school student, fairly well paying manufacturing jobs were plentiful and many of us considered that something we could fall back on. As you are well aware, today those jobs don't exist.</p>
<p>Hopefully your daughter will be successful in her chosen career as an actress. However, sometime in the future, acting opportunities may not be available for her, then what will she do? </p>
<p>There is no question that in today's highly competitive world almost everyone needs a college degree of some kind.</p>
<p>At your daughters age, I could not even conceive of the possibility of my chosen career not being successful and not lasting my entire life. It's great to have your head in the clouds, but I wish someone had told me to keep at least one foot on the ground. :)</p>
<p>I would be inclined to let her go to acting school, but I understand your dilemma. We have a friend who was accepted in NYU's program for musical theater. He finished his freshman year, although it was difficult. He found New York too wild (he is somewhat conservative). He left NYU and is headed to California to work in theater and is determined to do things his way. I actually admire young people who are willing to take these risks in an age when we helicopter parents have made many of our children very safety conscious and cautious. If things don't work out she can always start college at a later date. She seems to know that college is not what she wants, and she has a plan. I would listen to her and let her find her way. Invest the college savings for later. Just one opinion.</p>
<p>Chris, as you know, you and I have discussed this before. I think that it is good that you are also raising the question here. But I hope others realize that the situation in your case involves the field of theater and is not the same exact thing as someone deciding on college vs. getting a job or some such. </p>
<p>For theater, as you know, there are different paths. One is the BFA degree, like your D auditioned for this year. Another is a BA, followed possibly by a MFA. Another option is to do a BFA at a school that has barely any academics such as Boston Conservatory. Another is to attend a two year theater certificate program like the few you and I discussed in NYC. Another is to keep training by taking voice, dance, and acting (could even be in NYC) and hit the audition circuit. Those on Broadway have come from all these paths. </p>
<p>I still think the theater certificate programs in NYC are a good option for your daughter considering her current inclination being against college per se. Doing theater does not require a college education though it is solid training ground. I would talk to the faculty and administration at places like CITS (and the others you mentioned) and ask them what their graduates are doing and if any transfer into BFA programs later or just what. </p>
<p>I know someone who moved to NYC who was not quite 18 and she had been homeschooled and had had lots of training in voice, acting, and dance. She hit the audition circuit and did a few things like a children's theater tour, plus worked on the side as a nanny while pursuing her auditions and theater work which also included summer stock outside of NY. Now, she is considering/applying to college at 20. So, college is still a possibility for someone who did this for a while first. </p>
<p>I'm not so much opposed to letting your daughter do what she wants, I guess my problem would be in letting her use her college funds to do it. Call me conservative, but I'd certainly want a theater major to have a back up, like a college degree. What are the odds of making a living in theater? They could not be good.</p>
<p>Zagat, the theater programs that Chris's daughter is considering are two year certificate programs. They are an education but not a college degree. Just like community college is a two year degree, this other schools are still an educational insitution and might be the right one for her in her field. My daughter's voice teacher and acting teacher are on the faculty at one of the programs in NYC that Chris's D is considering and it IS a school but just not a college degree. </p>
<p>I have a child going to college for musical theater, though admittedly ONLY considered college. Still, she is entering a BFA program and the focus is on her field and not on a "back up" now. However, I know there are many things she can do if she does not make it on stage. Her background and degree will serve her well and she has many strengths besides as a performer. But she is focused now on her goals as a performer. No matter what a kid chooses to do in the next few years, it won't preclude other things down the line. For instance, I could see my kid directing or choregraphing or writing scripts, even if her current focus is not on that per se. </p>
<p>As far as using college funds toward other training for a kid, I don't see that as a negative thing because it is being put toward opportunities/experiences/training toward future goals. I know a local girl who put college off for a year. Her parents put college funds toward her recording a CD (she is a singer/pianist who also writes songs and has a band). She did indeed put out her own CD. Her parents funded this. Then she had deferred a year and so then went on to St. Lawrence College where she did have a band. However, her activities with music and the band started to take over and they have had many gigs all over and have since recorded some individual CDs as well as CDs as a band. She is no longer in college and is doing this full time. I don't think her parents are disappointed in using their funds to start her up as she is on her way with her passion and doing quite well now. </p>
<p>While my own kids ONLY considered college, I can see other paths that might make sense for some kids. </p>
<p>I definitely am not into plunking down tons of money for college for a kid who does not wanna be there either.</p>
<p>Soozievt, if your daughter gets tired of beating the bushes for acting jobs or finds success elusive, she will have a college degree. She will have so many more options.</p>
<p>Where I live there are many beautiful, talented kids asking if I want fries with that.</p>
<p>Zagat, yes, I realize that my D WILL have the college degree which makes it different than what Chris's D might opt for with regard to her theatrical training. For theater, there are many paths to success. But yes, my D will have a college degree and while she has no formal "back up plan" if being a theater performer does not work out, she WILL have a degree and a degree does mean something and is of value in the work world. She happens to be a good student and has many other attributes or strengths beyond performing even if that is her passion. We support her in pursuing her passions (even though some other folks might cry, What? Theater? that is not practical) but we also know that there are many other things she COULD do if her career on stage does not pan out. Like I said, she happens to excel in creating/writing (including shows), directing, choreographing, piano, and other types of things. So, her major in musical theater does not mean she could not ever do anything else. Like you say, she will have a college degree and that will open options even if her major was a BFA in musical theater. </p>
<p>Still, I don't think someone doing a certificate program is a bad option because it is still a form of schooling and training for this field. It does not preclude doing other things in life or even transferring into a four year college later. Not every kid is cut out for or is interested in college. However, getting an education is pretty critical in today's world. Usually that means college (or even grad school) but in some fields (theater is one of them) there are other paths toward careers. And for some kids, seeking other forms of training to get to those careers might just be their path. And a parent may wish to fund an alternate path if it is a path that has a goal and training involved. Like I said this other family funded the professional recording for this girl and she is succeeding as a performer and perhaps she won't need a college degree to do what she is doing. For many fields, a college degree is essential. For theater, it is a great path but not the only path. My child only considered college, however, as she is someone very interested in education and even other subjects beyond theater and wants to be educated. Nothing else was ever a consideration. But I recognize for some kids, formal college educations might not be right for them and my concern for those kids would be to make sure they get trained in something that leads to something. Maybe they apprentice in construction or maybe they do a two year acting certificate program. I know someone in circus school. Some do some sort of two year technical training in computers that leads to certain kinds of jobs. While my kids are the college bound type, I realize it is not for everyone but it is important that those kids get some kind of training and backround that is productive with some career goal in mind. So, I am not talking flipping fries but more a different path to a goal that might involve training of some sort that is not in a college. </p>
<p>Interesting thoughts being exchanged. Seem to be some leaning toward more pragmatic, others toward more idealistic.</p>
<p>Though I certainly would not advocate forcing my child to attend college, I view part of my role as a parent is to instruct my children as to how they may be more successful, not just for today and not just for their dreams, but in life in its entirety. At age 51, I have many more experiences than my 17 year old son. I would not want to smother his dreams, nor would I want him to go off on his own path without me offering solid advice. Encouraging our children to do their best in the arts is wonderful. Theater makes a wonderful hobby for many people. As a career choice, success depends on many factors. My college freshman nephew wants to be a pilot. Siimilar story. His chances of making a living in that field are low, but it is a great hobby that many people find exhilirating.</p>
<p>For my own child, I certainly would not recommend choosing the path that would include "you can always go to college later". I don't know the statical probability of that, however, I am quite sure it is even less than that Zagat's suggested chance of making a livelihood in theater. I tried to return to college 3 times after my two week college career, and other factors in life did not allow me to return succesfully on any of those attempts. chrism, being involed in edcuation, can surely find the statistics on college returns after a gap of a year or two or more. I am certain someone will post on this thread that they returned or they know someone who did. But I am sure chrism is not looking for anectdotal evidence.</p>
<p>That being said, not all students are meant to go to college. I have no idea what her other interests are, what her scholastic abilities may be or whether her desire to pursue performing in the theater is so overwhelming that she could not possibly focus on a college education. I applaud your daughter for obviously being talented in the arts and for having a dream to pursue. </p>
<p>I was thinking in terms of probability too. If the ambition is Broadway or movie star, I'd say it has to be miniscule.</p>
<p>Living in LA, you are surrounded by would be actors. They are the people who wash your hair at the salon, your favorite waitress, your dog walker, babysitter. One day you go to a restaurant or the salon and ask where that great waitress is. Gone back to (fill in the blank) is always the answer, another one throws in the towel.</p>
<p>My concern is that what looks glamorous to a wide eyed seventeen year old and reality are probably worlds apart. When you're 25 fighting for a summer stock part in Peoria reality can come crashing down. That's when the lucky ones have parents who saved their college fund.</p>
<p>Another possible option would be for her to start college in fall '05 and also to apply for the theatre programs in fall '06. That way, she would get a taste of the college experience, and she would have more choices in fall '06.</p>
<p>Regarding Zagat's post above:
My opinion about those who major in the performing arts differs. I don't think a major must be practical or lead to a probable job in the field. A major is a chance to be educated and immersed in your passionate area of interest. For some in the arts, it is a calling, it is their LIFE. My child has stated (in stuff I have read of hers) that theater is her raison d'etre. Her passion and involvement in the performing arts has been since nursery school. A person who chooses to pursue this field is likely a person with not only a passion but a talent or gift in this area. Who else is supposed to go into it but that kind of person? While the odds of getting cast on Broadway are slim, there are many theatrical jobs. Is it a difficult field to make it in? Surely. But someone is going to go into it and it should be someone with the drive, passion, and talent. I can ASSURE you that the motivation is not that it appears glamorous. I know for my own kid, her ambition is not to be a star. Her motivation is not based on seeing some glamorous star that she wants to emulate....but simply her life is the stage. This is what she does. And she does a good job at it. She wants to give to the audience. Our culture is enriched by those in the arts. SOMEONE has to go into it and that someone is gonna be someone who sees that as their life's work. I don't think we are talking of a seventeen year old eyeing something that looks glamorous. The child is not trying to be a star like someone on TV or in film or on Broadway. The kid has wanted to do it since she was four. Some people's passions start very young. I don't think it is my job to squelch that passion and drive and say, "it is not practical". To me, she is going after her goals and things can change insofar as if she has difficulty getting work, it is not the end of everything, she can do other jobs, perhaps related to theater or maybe not. Many people are skilled at more than one thing. </p>
<p>While it is a very very difficult field, someone is gonna do it and someone is going to be successful. If all the wonderful performers you see today on stage, stopped pursuing their ambition when young (due to being discouraged by "practically minded" parents), they would not be there now. Some of the performers you see on Broadway went to the top BFA programs in the country, some went to lesser known ones. Some went to acting schools like Chris's D is contemplating. Some just hit the audition circuit while taking acting, voice, and dance classes on the side. Will everyone who trains in this field make it? Certainly not. But someone is going to and why stop someone who has the talent and interest from going for it, only cause the probability of success is not high? There are all levels of success. This need not simply be a "hobby" but there is work to be had in regional theater, schools, independent films, dance studios, cabaret clubs, etc. A career as a performer is not narrowly defined as making it on Broadway or being a movie star. There are many jobs in the performing arts. They may not pay well, but they are a life for someone who cannot picture themself not pursuing this passion. </p>
<p>Susan, your daughter sounds like a gem. It sounds like she is realistic, truly passionate and dedicated. However, I'd say those are rare qualities in a teenager. </p>
<p>I do believe for many the understanding and acceptance of reality isn't there. I have just seen it too many times. Certainly people should follow their hearts and pursue their passions. Hopefully they will do it with open eyes and balance.</p>
<p>I don't think my daughter is rare at all. Did you ever see a gifted cellist who went off to Juilliard? A gifted figure skater who did not go to college but rose up the ranks to national competition? How about a pro tennis player? Is it very very difficult to get to the top in any of these fields? Of course it is. Few make it to the top. But somebody does and it is the person with the drive and the passion, and of course, the talent. Some kids have no idea what they want to do when they grow up and this is PERFECTLY normal and fine. I have one child who was fairly undecided when going off to college but with a possible direction to go into architecture but definitely nothing commited at this juncture. But I also have a kid with a lifelong passion. Kids like this are not that rare. I think many of these kids are realistic about the odds but they cannot see not pursuing the field of their passion, their ambition, their dream and frankly their skill/talent. </p>
<p>I know many kids involved in theater through my D and some are extremely talented and I truly believe that several of them are going to make it. Somebody will and these kids fit the image of who likely will. They have already made the cut into very very selective training programs. Not all will make it but definitely some will and they are realistic about it but they won't know til they try. As far as passionate, I can't begin to tell you the level of passion her theater friends have. She is not rare or alone in that respect. </p>
<p>When you see this kind of passion in their soul, you'll know it and you'll know that there is no way of stopping them because they could not imagine a life away from the stage. They might not make it but that MUST try because it is a deep seated part of their being. It has nothing to do with being starry eyed about a glamorous life. Hardly. It will be a life of many disappointments through the audition process. Believe me, when you watch the Tony Awards tomorrow night, the winners will likely be people who have met with tons of rejection and hard times but their talent and drive pushed through. Also there were likely supportive parents behind them. </p>
<p>Anyway, not just in the arts, but there truly are some teens who are deeply passionate about something.</p>
<p>Chrism - interesting question you posed and interesting feedback. Since you've asked for input I'll add mine - suppose you and your D agree that she can give acting school a try next year, but would have to put in some of her own money. That way, should she decide to go to college at some point, the college funds wouldn't be depleted.</p>
<p>As for the other part of this thread - my D is going with the pragmatic approach. Theatre major at our State University. If she stays in theatre, that's fantastic and I'll support her decision. But if she decides that it's just not for her she'll also have the opportunity to change majors. Plus, I didn't want to spend major bucks for her to graduate with a degree from an expensive program and have her spend the next few years asking people if they "wanted fries with their order".</p>
<p>I can see that she's already waivering a little on the theatre major - so I think she's made the right decision for herself and my wallet.</p>
<p>I wonder if we'd be having this discussion if Chris' daughter was talking about signing up for culinary school or auto mechanics school. :)</p>
<p>Yes, theater school is a risky choice - no guarantees of finding a job. But, let's face it, getting a liberal arts degree - or even ANY college degree these days - comes with no guarantee of finding work either. </p>
<p>My main concern in this case would be how Chris views her daughter's potential for follow-through, especially during the year "off" - if I saw her laying around the house for a year, I'd be concerned, but if she were persuing her dreams during that year, while applying to the certificate programs, that would be an excellent sign of her determination, and I'd be inclined to help pay for her education if she was accepted to one of the theater programs. </p>
<p>I think, however, that if this were my daughter, I'd insist that she defer at one of the 4-year colleges she's been accepted to for a year, just in case she doesn't get accepted into the theater programs she is aiming for - at least that way she'd have a back up plan still in place. I would also insist that she get a paying job and save up to contribute to either the cost of the theater program or college. </p>
<p>I do also like the suggestion of starting college while applying to the theater programs in order to get a "Taste" of what college is like. But, I would have to weigh whether she would really put her all into a year of college.</p>
<p>A year out of your life when you're 17 or 18 isn't going to screw up your entire life --- it might give her enough time to really commit to either course of action. Good luck to your daughter Chris!</p>
<p>Carolyn,
You made an excellent point about wondering if the discussion would be the same if we were talking about culinary school or a trade school. I agree that no degree is a guarantee of a SPECIFIC job in the intended field, as well. </p>
<p>Chris's D plans to continue her musical theater training locally as well as auditioning for local theater during her year off. So, her year off had nothing to do with wanting time off. To the contrary, the child had wanted to go to a BFA program in musical theater this fall and it did not go positively for her in terms of admissions which is common because these programs are highly selective with worse odds of admissions than the Ivy League (they average about 5% admit rates). To those that suggested she got to one of her colleges this year, might not fully understand that she was not admitted to the theater programs at these colleges she got into. I can't see her going to these colleges considering she is not even that keen on college right now in the first place and is not going to be as keen if she can't even study theater at college which was her intentions. </p>
<p>Many who know this field might suggest she continue her training and production work this year and reaudition. Plus have other options for next year and that is what they are doing such as two year theater/acting certificate programs. At this point in time, they did not opt to do this for this fall as she is just 18 and these programs do not involve dorms and they do involve NYC. I think their current plan is pretty well thought out. I recognize it is hard to switch gears as a parent when college was assumed and expected. But for this field, there are other options of study and I think that is what her D is looking to do. And if she is not that into academics, it might be the right thing for her. As I mentioned in a previous post, there are a few BFA programs where academics are a very small part of the degree and I do think she could audition for those, such as Boston Conservatory, particularly if the parents feel more comfortable with a four year degree program. </p>
<p>carolyn said: I wonder if we'd be having this discussion if Chris' daughter was talking about signing up for culinary school or auto mechanics school. </p>
<p>Of course we would not. Training in those venues would be much more likely to lead to a long term career for the non-college bound than theater training.</p>
<p>As already mentioned in this thread, some students are not meant to attend college, and vocational training is a great alternative for those students. Although one can argue the benefits of studying theater and attempting to follow ones dream of being a performer, getting training in theater may be nice, but it is hardly comparable to being trained as a chef or mechanic.</p>
<p>chrism said: I don't know if she's making a mistake by attending acting school rather than getting a college degree.</p>
<p>Had chrism given vocational training as one of the alternatives, I would certainly have encouraged further converation between the parent and child in that area. However, vocational training was not one of the choices. Theater versus college was offered for discussion.</p>
<p>chrism obviously has concerns about whether her daughters "Plan A" is a good one. And, she appears to be even more concerned about the obvious lack of "Plan B". Another poster mentioned the plentitude of former actors who are waiting tables. That isn't the "Plan B" I want for my child. Though there is nothing wrong with waiting tables. It is good honest work. I'm sure there are plenty of theater students with 2 year certificates who can attest to that.</p>
<p>Many of the kids I know who ended up at culinary schools did some terms of college and then decided on the career route. Most of the kids I know who are going for technical degrees are living at home and commuting. ChrisM is understandably concerned about sending her D into NYC without the umbrella of a dormitory or campus. THough NYU may not have the traditional campus like Penn State or many other schools, it does have an infracstructure in place to help out 18 year olds. I would be very concerned about sending my 18 year old into NYC without that layer of protection.</p>
<p>I don't know really what to say, as I can identify with the concerns about sending someone that young into a large city. My suggestion is to look at Ohio Wesleyan's internship program that is linked with the Lee STrasberg Studio which is also linked with NYU's studios. You can get college credit and some help from OW--do at least talk to them. They have a number of internship possibilities and the Strasberg Studio is only one possibility. If she can take a course each term at Baruch or Hunter as well (very inexpensive if she is NY in state; still reasonable for out of state) and does the studio under OW's umbrella, and maybe some private lessons, applying to NYU as a transfer would be a realistic possibility for next year. Their transfer accept rates are comparable to freshman rates, so it is certainly no worse than from college and if she has weak college grades and SAT scores, if she does well in two academic college courses and is a transfer, those factors will be mitagated. I do not know how much OW helps with housing and other issues in these programs. They may have some dorm arrangement. The tough and expensive part of NYC living is the room. </p>
<p>I know someone who went to Pace U more to take advantage of their university facilities, particularly the dorms, and has been very successful not just in the college theatre department there, but has been able to get some professional credits as well. The cost was much less than NYU, admissions less difficult and the school permits the theatre kids do take outside gigs, which is difficult to do if you are going to Tisch.</p>
<p>College is not for everyone, even for back up. Gweneth Paltrow did not go to college and Reese Witherspoon dropped out from Stanford after freshman year. Think of it as a gap year, your daughter can go to college later if she finds out that it's hard to make it as an actress. Do it the Shackleton way(the famous explorer), let kids make mistake, and I'm not saying it's a mistake that she doesn't go to college right away. May be she should get a job to pay for most of her expenses so she can properly gaining the real actress experience, and I'm not being facetious.
I read somewhere that this lawyer/partner from a top law firm in New York, graduate from Stuy high school, spent 10 years doing dance until she was hurt and couldn't dance anymore, she went back to school, obtained a law degree and became a partner. So nothing is set in stone. It might give her some good experience if she decided to go to college later on.
Since she does not like to go to school and has been saying so for 2 years that means she kind of internalize that thinking/philosophy and wanted to try something but college, she should be allowed to do it.</p>
<p><strong>EDIT</strong> I had a roomate who's an aspiring jazz singer, an ex-model(but hated it), who has a sister with a special talent in acting but did not do anything about it. I observed the frustations and the wasted ambitions and it was of sad.</p>