Don't ask? (Seeking an explanation for rejection)

Parents Forum
1

<p>In another thread on this forum, Berurah posted the following about her son’s experience with an admissions rep after his EA rejection from Yale:</p>

<p>
[quote]
When I first posted the dream denied thread, so many of you made predictions for my son that, in fact, actually came true. I think that some of you may be wondering why I was so very convinced that my son didn't stand a chance at any of his reach schools. I would like to explain something now that this admissions ordeal is mostly over for us (Stanford is still pending).</p>

<p>As many of you know, my son was rejected in the EA round at Yale. At this time, we had been full of hope and optimism, convinced that his intellectual curiosity and long-standing interest in epidemiology and infectious diseases would shine through on this special app. on which he spent countless hours. Well, it apparently didn't, and without even so much as a deferral, the Yale bid was history.</p>

<p>Panic stricken and devastated from this first swift blow, I made an appeal on this forum for help and was so overwhelmed with the response. Many fantastic ideas were expressed, and my son picked himself up and proceeded on his trek.</p>

<p>But there were questions left unanswered. My son decided to write the regional rep at Yale to see if he could garner any feedback regarding his app. He had many other apps. to complete in such a short time, and from Yale's response, he figured that he was on the wrong track entirely. So he emailed the rep. for some feedback.</p>

<p>I will never forget what he told my son. He basically said that my son's app. was lacking in certain areas, and that whereas the hard numbers were fine, the essays, extracurriculars, and teacher recs were not up to snuff for an elite school. He told my son that Yale does not grant "polite deferrals", and that Yale felt obligated to let my son know that he basically didn't cut it. See for yourself....here is an excerpt from that letter:</p>

<p>"By denying students early on, we try to give them an idea of how competitive their application is in terms of our pool and several other highly selective institutions…."

[/quote]
This response, which clearly increased the anxiety of the long wait for RD results, raises a question that has crossed my mind before: Is it such a good idea to ask for these explanations?</p>

<p>Almost by definition, a school that has just rejected a student is not the best judge of that student’s strengths. Under those circumstances, I’m not sure what kind of helpful advice admissions officers can realistically give. Either they can offer bland, possibly insincere reassurances (“You were absolutely amazing, but we just had too many applicants,” or “We didn’t pick you, but surely an even better school will”)--or honestly say how they, whether rightly or wrongly, evaluate a candidate's prospects. I suspect that most reps take the former road because it’s less likely to cause offense, but it doesn’t really tell the applicant anything. </p>

<p>Our kids put so much blood, sweat, and tears into their applications—and the accomplishments that those applications represent—that it’s easy to end up feeling that their dream schools owe them, if not admission, then at least an abject apology and a ray of hope for the future. But that’s not really an admissions rep’s job. As easy as it can be to demonize these people, I suspect that most of them aren't monsters who enjoy breaking the hearts of eager, hard-working students. Still, they work for their schools, not for us or our children. Asking them for help or for explanations puts them in a bind where they’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t tell the truth as they see it.</p>

<p>In the case of a deferral or waitlist, I can see that it might be useful to inquire—or, preferably, ask a GC to inquire—about any information that might help tip the final decision. But the whole premise of such a conversation seems different to me, since the school has demonstrated at least some degree of interest in the candidate. Once they’ve rejected you, I think it’s best to realize they’re the last place to look for help or encouragement, and move on.</p>

2

<p>I agree with you except for the fact that the letter they sent him presumed to predict how he would be judged by OTHER schools. It is fine for the school to say that the student wasn't competitiv within the pool of candidates for their school, but it is not proper for them to say how another school might consider his application.</p>

3

<p>Well...I'd certainly think it was improper if this (fortunately misguided) judgment were part of the official rejection letter. But if a student emails a busy admissions rep and asks for his opinion, I'm not sure it's fair to object when the rep gives him that opinion.</p>

4

<p>Lastbastion: I agree with you. It's natural, on receiving a rejection, or even a wait-list letter, for many (most?)(even all?) of us to want to know what went wrong - what wasn't sufficient, after all the hard work.</p>

<p>But with admissions offices rejecting up to 80% of applications at the most selective school, it's not realistic to expect anyone to explain why someone was not accepted - both in terms of a concrete explanation in a given case and in terms of the volume of explanations that would be needed.</p>

<p>If I were an adcom, I would not want that added to my workload.</p>

<p>On top of that, any explanation is more likely to cause trouble, for example even in terms of litigation, than no explanation, which in almost all cases would only cause temporary distress on the receiving end.</p>

<p>Also, as we can see from the posts over the last couple of days, good students were accepted in many fine schools. Deciding where to go ought to be the focus now.</p>

<p>The only exception I can think of at the moment is the student who was rejected at all, or almost all schools. We've seen some posts like that. There some inquiry into what happened is important - probably done via the GC as intermediary - followed by possible applications to schools that are still accepting them.</p>

5

<p>lastbastion,</p>

<p>If you look at the numbers of Yale applicants from the part of the country in which we live, that particular regional rep. was probably not all THAT busy <em>lol</em> Being "busy" does not excuse pretentiousness.</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

6

<p>I thought that the Yale adcom's letter was helpful, even though he was out of bound for presuming to speak on behalf of other schools, and, as Berurah noted, somewhat pretentious. He did not respond with pablum, but with a reasoned, if harsh assessment, of Berurah's S's application. To the extent that there is still time to fix deficiencies in an app, responses like these are useful.<br>
It was helpful for Berurah's son to know that his transcript and board scores were strong but that he was let down by unhelpful recs. This actually confirmed Berurah's impression that the GC and teachers at her son's school were totally unfamiliar with the kind of recs top schools were looking for. Remember the thread about words and phrases to avoid in recs? Very possibly, these were the very ones that were used in the Yale app. The Yale adcom also commented on the essay. I understand that Berurah's son rewrote his essay for the RD apps. Maybe the new essay made his ECs stand out more strongly than his EA app had done. As others have mentioned, the EA/ED apps are often the weakest. Applicants get better with practice--so do GCs and teachers.</p>

<p>Edit; Berurah, I did not see your post while typing mine. Do you think your son's GC and teachers wrote different recs for his RD applications?</p>

7

<p>I agree with Marite: The rep's response may have been pretentious, but it sounds as if it was also helpful. As for how busy the rep may be--according to the staff directory on Yale's admissions site, one rep covers Alabama, Arkansas, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New York (Rockland), North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee and West Virginia.</p>

8

<p>My D also went the route of rejection from Yale. We did not ask, however. But my D says the GC's at her school prodded the National Merit finalists to try for the Ivies, not the other kids - obviously the valedictorian and salutatorian (my D) were not worthy enough, even though the others were much farther down the ranking. And a 1550 SAT wasn't good enough, either. When she requested recs, they didn't even know what Middlebury was. And her GC, when told that she was nervous about U of Ch said, why? They aren't selective! They know TX schools only and are little if any help otherwise. We feel certain that they did not know what to write. Her GC wrote about the same letter for everyone, even though she had a resume in front of her. I know GC's work hard, with 609 graduates, but perhaps parents like us could push for better training for them about the types of letters the ivies want, etc. It's too late for our kids, but hopefully this will help others. She finally found the right teacher to write the right letter, and Amherst accepted her. Cypress Creek HS, a bit west of us, places all kids of kids in the ivies - ranked high in Time, etc., and I bet it's the ocunselors and teachers who have been trained to help those kids. And I bet it was the parents that pushed the school to do it, since that is what many parents there expect. I teach at the same school, and I remember the counselor for the college lab saying that they hadn't even gotten 1 kid into Rice last year, and that was their goal! That worked, but I hear no comments about the ivies. 1 kid went to Harvard last year, recruited for sports. No one else did. That says a lot about the GC's.</p>

9

<p>I think for smaller schools, it's appropriate to call to find out the reason for denied admissions. I personally called my top choice after recieving the letter. It took me until mid-May to call them after being angry and upset (and refusing to wear that damned sweatshirt!). So I called my admissions rep to see what's up and that I really did want to go there. We had a good conversation- said that everything was fine, I just had too many B's for them to count and if I could maintain a 3.0 or better in college, I was welcome to transfer.'</p>

<p>That was that. He had my application in front of him by the time I called back.</p>

10

<p>"but my D says the GC's at her school prodded the National Merit finalists to try for the Ivies, not the other kids - obviously the valedictorian and salutatorian (my D) were not worthy enough, even though the others were much farther down the ranking..."</p>

<p>I think that it's important for parents and students to realize that unless they have hired a college consultant, the main people whom they should be counting on to find the ideal colleges for their students to apply to are themselves, not the GCs.</p>

<p>The GCs' job is to help students get into college, but this doesn't mean the ideal college for a student. IMO it's up to parents and students to do the very hard, thoughtful work that it takes to figure out what colleges best match students' interests, personalities and talents. Fortunately, there is CC and plenty of excellent college guide books to help one through the process.</p>

11

<p>Sometimes there really is no good reason. Just too many qualified kids for the spots that are left after the special interest slots are filled. Still, I shake my head at some of the reasons given, even on paper. I saw a SUNY Purchase drama denial that I thought was unnecessarily mean, and some others that were just not appropriate. The Yale rep may have given the reason in his mind but I don't think he put a good spin on it. There is that implication that the young man was not selective college material. Though I agree with NSM that Yale's process of not putting anyone that they truly do not believe they will accept on the waitlist as opposed to H's procedure which is to put many kids on the waitlist, I think it is going beyond one's circle to make statements about what other colleges would think about the app. The comments should have be restricted to Yale's opinion of the app, not how it would be viewed by other schools. </p>

<p>Some people I know have called schools and asked for feedback on denials. Sometimes the feedback is valuable. Particularly if a GC calls with a relationship with the adcoms, important info is often imparted. One student I know who was waitlisted by a college where his high school felt he was an excellent candidate was assessed as terrible at the interview (which was not required and not supposed to be evaluative). The young man was advised to avoid unnecessary interviews and work on the scheduled interviews that were necessary for some of his schools. They also looked for additional schools where an interview was not necessary. It is also helpful for those who audition or have a portfolio, to get feedback on a rejection because there could be a fixable problem involved. One young man I know was told that his audition piece was just not believable, and he was able to replace it with something that fit him better. </p>

<p>But, in general, with the top schools, there is often no good reason someone is denied.</p>

12

<p>lastbastion and marite,</p>

<p>Though there was a minimal amount of helpfulness in finding out that there were things "wrong", we didn't find the response all that useful. It would be akin to a student's asking a math teacher about problem that s/he didn't understand and getting the response that the answer was wrong with no guidance whatsoever as to how to go about fixing it. That said, I have never made the contention that Yale <em>owed</em> us any explanation at all. It was the adcom's choice whether or not to answer the email. IMHO, not enough help was given to counter the damage and bad feelings it caused. For us, it turned out to be a detrimental thing, but it was my son's choice to write the adcom, and it was the adcom's choice to write back.</p>

<p>marite...I will answer your questions later when I have the time for a more lengthy post.</p>

<p>The reason I posted about the Yale adcom letter AT ALL was because I felt that there may be a few people who had thought that I had made much ado about nothing with the "dreams denied" thread, and I wanted to explain why I had made that post in the first place--we honestly and truly expected to be rejected from ALL of his reach schools, and I was wanting to get some advice to prepare for that disappointment.</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

13

<p>Having sat on an admissions committee for an academic program (not college or graduate school) I see it from both sides. On the adcom's side I can see how difficult it is to answer a letter like that. How do you describe a "deficit" in an obviously qualified student? Not all of the 20k applicants to Yale are qualified, but I would bet that they have at least four qualified students for each slot. While there are some obvious admits there comes a point where it becomes somewhat subjective or "lotteryish". Saying yes to Berurah's son would involve saying no to another good student. In summary, it's a hard letter to answer. On the other side the adcom could have answered the letter in a better (read here kinder) fashion. And the letter can be answered in a kindly fashion without any dishonesty or "courtesy wait list".</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
IMHO, not enough help was given to counter the damage and bad feelings it caused. For us, it turned out to be a detrimental thing, but it was my son's choice to write the adcom, and it was the adcom's choice to write back.

[/quote]
Berurah--I probably shouldn't have gone off on the tangent of whether or not the rep's reply was helpful in your son's case, since my real point in starting this thread was to suggest that it might be better not to seek these kinds of explanations for outright rejections (as opposed to deferrals or waitlists). As other parents and kids go through this difficult process, it's worth thinking twice before seeking answers that may hurt more than they genuinely help.</p>

<p>Again, I am glad that your son's ordeal had a happy ending.</p>

15

<p>lastbastion,</p>

<p>Thanks. I think I would, in the end, have to agree with you. If he had it to do over again, my son would likely choose not to email an adcom about a rejection. What is the point, really? ~b.</p>

16

<p>I previously served on the admissions committee of one of the top medical schools in the country. At that time (about 10 years ago) we had 5000 applicants for 150 or so slots. After a first screen, we interviewed 800 applicants. I would say the top 500 or so all had similar outstanding records and extracurricular activities, service, etc. and were basically interchangeable. Except for a few truly amazing superstars, any of the 80% or so remaining slots could have been filled by any one of these other outstanding students (which represented the cream of the national pre-med applicant pool). The distinctions were small and highly subjective. The reason for rejection of any of these outstanding students was not a reflection of their credentials or potential, nor was it due to any deficiency in their applications. Instead, it wasthe harsh reality of too few slots for those who really wanted to attend our particular school. Moreover, since we had an 80%+ yield among acceptees, the number of acceptees was virtually fixed and it was pre-ordained that many outstanding applicants would have to be rejected. I would also add that the large majority of students who did not even make the interview cut still ended up in medical school somewhere. Likewise, the problem of too many outstanding students chasing a small number of coveted slots at a few institutions such as the Ivies and elite LACs creates the inevitable situation that many outstanding students will be rejected from those particular institutions. Their rejection from those particular schools may have nothing to do with any weakness or deficiency in their applications (as some have alluded in this thread), and says nothing about their academic achievements or potential. I would advise applicants applying to any of the highly competitive schools not to have their heart set upon attending only one particular school or even group of elite schools, but rather focus on a number of schools of varying competitivenes that would meet their academic goals. Just as it was the case for the premed students that did not gain acceptance at our particular medical school but still gained admission elsewhere, outstanding applicants will find away to achieve their academic and career aspirations-it just may not be in one of perceived "elite" schools that all the other outstanding applicants are also applying to.</p>

17

<p>pmyen,</p>

<p>Excellent post! My son would have been much more receptive to that explanation than to the vague references that he received. ~berurah</p>

18

<p>Berurah, I may have missed it here or on one of the other threads, but did your S send applications to the other schools that were substantially different from what he sent to Yale? Did he get different people to write new recs? I do think that my S's apps got better as he did more of them - might that be part of the explanation for why yours did as well as he did RD? And what happened with Stanford?!</p>

<p>While the Yale adcomm may indeed have been pretentious, if his reply contributed to your S submitting an improved "package" for the RD apps, perhaps it was worth the pain and worry - look at the amazing final tally!</p>

19

<p>wish,</p>

<p>I'm planning to post about this when I have more time. We've not received the letter from Stanford yet! ~b.</p>

20

<p>They weren't judging individual students to begin, so if they blow smoke when you ask the question, it is because they really mean it. Would you prefer the truth? "Your kid, relative to other kids, did not help us serve our institutional mission. We needed to have X percentage football players, including two tackles, and he wasn;t one of them. The Near East archaelogy department has been clamoring for 5 students, and we promised. The orchestra needs four trombones next year for the Verdi Requiem, and all of the trombones are graduating. We have more developmental admits this year than last. Next year is election in Connecticut, and there is a bill that could cost us a lot of money, so we need to take the four daughters of the state senators. We needed to please the GC at St. Thomas Ivy Prep this year, since he is always so helpful, so we took 22 this year. We have more legacies every year, as the school grew in the 70s and 80s. The President has put a lid on financial aid, and we can't take more than 40% the class who need it. We've taken a beating in the press lately for looking too "white", and the Pres. told us to take care of it.</p>

<p>Your kid, from what we read on his application, wouldn't have helped us one bit. Fact is, we spent a total of 145 seconds on his application. </p>

<p>Thanks for the check, and for helping our statistical selectivity." ("Oh, and by the way, next time your kid really wants to improve his chances for admission, tell him to choose wealthier parents. Single best thing he can do. His admission chances will go up from 1 in 20, to 1 in 3.")</p>