<p>Mini,
Thanks. Your posted is absolutely true and its about time students and parents understood that the description of events you described is how it works when you are comparing a dozen "qualified applicants" for every spot. If people really "got" this they may take things less personally.</p>
<p>Don't ever ask why you son or daughter was rejected! Never! Not only will it gain you absolutely nothing, but it will make your son or daughter terribly guilty. First of all, the adcom would never tell you exactly why and even if he or she did, would you really want to hear? What if he told you that deciding factor which eliminated your son or daughter from being admitted? Wouldn't your son or daughter be extremely guilty for not doing that one thing or improving that one area that eliminated them? Its really a bad idea.</p>
<p>LOL to Mini's post... because it's right on. </p>
<p>After that, you need the kids with stellar scores so that your USNews ranking doesn't take a beating from the football tackles, legacies, minorities, trombones, and senator's daughters. </p>
<p>Or how about "You and 1,000 of the other ED people all happened to be applying as people we think will be English/psychology/history majors, and we can only take 100 of them?" </p>
<p>It is often said (and it's great advice) that, for a school to be a match, the student's scores need to be in the top 75% for that institution. Of course, a match also means that there is a 50/50 shot of being rejected. Basic thought is that once you are done with Mini's list, there aren't many slots left for the "normal" kids. </p>
<p>I think that admissions officer could have phrased the letter in a better manner. "We receive so very many outstanding applications every year. We have the ability to take the students who are not just great in most fields and good in others, but nearly perfect across the board. As you did ask for weaknesses in your application: a lot of your application is outstanding (GPA, board scores), but your essays and recommendations were good. We are also in the situation of [describe Mini's scenario], which is in no way a reflection upon you or your achievements. Best of luck with the rest of your applications."</p>
<p>Granted, I've read WAAYY too many rejection letters in my life (2 undergrad, ton for law school, and even more for summer associate positions). The ultimate worst one was 36 words long, saying that they were not in a position to interview me. About 3/4 of the others told me to apply during my 2L year, as they only hire 2Ls. IMO, if the Yale rejection letter were written correctly, there would not be much of a need to email the admissions rep.</p>
<p>Yeah, Mini, that was the best of your 1361 posts!</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>He basically said that my son's app. was lacking in certain areas, and that whereas the hard numbers were fine, the essays, extracurriculars, and teacher recs were not up to snuff for an elite school.>></p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>I've gone through many many applications in my career, and many times, it has been impossible to articulate why one applicant was rejected because, as others suggested, there were others equally qualified. Most of the time, it was not that an applicant was lacking in any way, but that someone else was marginally stronger or working in an area that was considered more desirable. But sometimes, it is easier to write a generic letter saying that the pool of applicants was unusually strong and the rejection was in no way a reflection on the applicant's qualities. It may be true, but sometimes it is a copout for a member of a selection committee or a potential hirer who does not want to either go back to reading the file or hurt the feelings of the applicant. </p>
<p>To be sure, if the deadline has passed for an applicant to address the weaknesses in an application, there is no point in mentioning them since nothing can be done. And it is very likely that it had passed in this case. I had not taken into consideration the time factor. So I had believed, very probably wrongly, that there might be time to ask the GC and the teachers to write different recs than the ones they had written and which the adcom considered weak. If there was no time to do so, then the letter was pointless, and the tone was certainly hurtful.</p>
<p>I think that admissions officer could have phrased the letter in a better manner. "We receive so very many outstanding applications every year. We have the ability to take the students who are not just great in most fields and good in others, but nearly perfect across the board. As you did ask for weaknesses in your application: a lot of your application is outstanding (GPA, board scores), but your essays and recommendations were good. We are also in the situation of [describe Mini's scenario], which is in no way a reflection upon you or your achievements. Best of luck with the rest of your applications."</p>
<p>This is very true. However, keep in mind that during admissions time, adcoms are working literally into the night, and also are having to deal with calls, e-mails from angry, crying, etc. students and parents.</p>
<p>While I agree that the adcom theoretically could have been more tactful, I am impressed that the person at least tried to give a personal answer. The adcom could have given a terse form answer instead of taking the trouble to look over the student's application and to try to give some specific feedback.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>I will never forget what he told my son. He basically said that my son's app. was lacking in certain areas, and that whereas the hard numbers were fine, the essays, extracurriculars, and teacher recs were not up to snuff for an elite school.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>What the adcom should have said is that the essays, etc. were not up to snuff for HIS elite school. To pretend to speak for the other schools is going far beyond his brief. Case in point: My D was also rejected outright Yale EA and was accepted at Harvard with the same basic app. (But then maybe Y doesn't consider H an elite school.)</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>Almost by definition, a school that has just rejected a student is not the best judge of that student’s strengths.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>True, but in calling the adcom, you were looking in the right place for someone who is the best judge of your student's WEAKNESSES--weakness that may be able to be addressed in the other applications. I've heard of examples of kids who find out that one of their recommendations was problematic, a recommendation that they thought would be boffo. Or advice that one of the essays needed to talk more about the kids themselves. This is info that would be useful. Unfortunately, the advice given by the adcom was way too generic--anybody can see if the stat portion was in line with expectations. So of course, it must be the rest of the app that was deficient.</p>
<p>As to the question of whether it is worth it to call an adcom about a rejection:</p>
<p>I think it would be hard for an adcom to be honest with an applicant (if the adcom had any feelings). Adcoms could be more straightforward with the GC, though. Maybe a GC call would be better if you are trying to fish for deficiencies that you could actually fix.</p>
<p>D didn't call her Yale adcom after her EA rejection. After all, we told her that it really was a crapshoot. But she did look at her app essays with a more critical eye and modified them for the next round of apps. I thought her essays at the end of the app season were better than at the beginning of the cycle. That is a big risk that kids take in applying EA--they have less time to perfect their essays.</p>
<p>Yale and Duke have very different admissions practices. The essays are important at Yale. They only matter for filling the last few places at Duke...at least if Gudendag (spelling?) is still the admissions dean. He really doesn't believe in them---has said so publicly. Indeed, I don't know if Duke still does it, but at one point, it asked students (on the application) how much help they'd gotten with their essays and who had helped .</p>
<p>Different kinds of kids get into different schools, depending not only on the applicant pool, but their personal strengths. (For example, if a kid looks good on paper but just can't interview at all, our guidance counselors always recommend Stanford which doesn't use interviews.) If you do ask why you didn't get in, and the admissions officer tries to give you an answer, I think it's unfair to criticize his response. I do agree the Yale admissions officer might have better off not making any reference to "other schools" but it could still be that his response was directly on point---that B's son's essays weren't up to the standards of top schools WHICH COUNT ESSAYS HEAVILY. Duke doesn't. In berurah's son's case, based on my understanding of how Duke works--or at least did a few years ago--it's probable that his essays weren't read at all.</p>
<p>But by telling a student that his essays and teacher recs weren't as good as the #s, the Yale rep could have helped the son. The son might have made more of an effort with essays on other apps and perhaps asked different teachers, who might be better writers, for recs to other colleges. </p>
<p>I know that beurah's still feeling the sting of her son's Yale rejection. However, sometimes you shouldn't ask a question if you won't like the answer. As a mom, berurah is starting from the position that her son is good enough for ANY school--and that's great, because if your mother won't believe in you, who will? </p>
<p>beurah complains that the rep is "pretentious"--I don't think he was in the least. No matter what explanation he gave, as a loving mom, berurah wasn't going to like it--which is perfectly understandable. </p>
<p>So, go be happy about the Duke acceptance. It sounds as if berurah's son always liked it better anyway--and, personally, I think there's a good chance that one of the things that hurt berurah's son is that his essays and answers to questions like how you first became interested in Yale and teacher recs "let the cat out of the bag" so to speak that Yale really wasn't his first choice.</p>
<p>PS to ellemenope: As I understand it, your D didn't ask why she didn't get into Yale..and thus was NOT told that her essays or recs weren't good enough for other elite schools. There's no reason to think that if your D had asked, that would have been the response.</p>
<p>jonri,</p>
<p>Well, actually, my son received a telephone call from the regional rep at Duke yesterday during which she EFFUSIVELY praised his essay on how he came to be interested in the areas of epidemiology and infectious diseases at the tender age of 8, an interest he retains to this very day, In addtion, she mentioned the uniqueness of a very, very special letter of recommendation that was submitted (that was not related at all to school personnel). The same essay and rec. were also submitted to Yale. To each (school), his own, I suppose. You want to know what I really, really think? I think that my son's app. never made it "to the table" at Yale. And I think that if it had, the outcome may (or may not) have been different. It's all water under the bridge now anyway.</p>
<p>I think I have already conceded that it was a mistake to ask for any feedback from the adcom at Yale. Nevertheless, the response was a bit inappropriate any way you cut it, IMHO.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>oh, and jonri,</p>
<p>Please do not mistake an EXPLANATION for an EXCUSE or "whining". To be perfectly honest with you, the "sting" from Yale's rejection has completely healed. Someone made a post that indicated to me that perhaps s/he did not understand my defeatist attitude toward his reach schools. I provided the explanation about the Yale adcom's letter in order to give a little more insight into my feelings. I honestly do not understand the attitude you've expressed toward me. I wish I could have the post back, believe me. I think I have been lambasted (or at least <em>instructed</em> in the ways of the MOST elite ivies) enough. O.K., so my son just ain't good enough for Yale. Now, tell me something I DON'T know? <em>I</em> still think he's the cat's meow! :)</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>Quote: "O.K., so my son just ain't good enough for Yale. Now, tell me something I DON'T know? <em>I</em> still think he's the cat's meow! "</p>
<p>Berurah,
Don't worry, the current President of Duke left Yale to come to Duke. Apparently he thought Duke was a better fit for him too! :)</p>
<p>Loved your post, Mini. I may contribute a similarly scathing one for one of my S's schools - where he got in but got no money - once all is signed, sealed, and delivered! We could start a new strand that would be scathingly funny and that might allow us all to let off some stream!</p>
<p>1sokkermom,</p>
<p>Love ya! xoxo ~berurah</p>
<p>wish,</p>
<p>Oooooooh, include me please!! <em>lol</em> ~b.</p>
<p>Berurah,</p>
<p>Another secret: S applied last year in haste to Yale EA because of some pressure from his classmates. (His best friend was a double legacy and just assumed he would get in to Yale. He was rejected. ) Son was deferrred, and basically withdrew his application. His attitude: "If they don't want me, I don't want them, period." Like your son, he was accepted at many other fine schools. He loves where he is, and has never looked back.</p>
<p>1sokkermom,</p>
<p>That is SO exactly how my son feels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Duke WANTS him. The regional rep called yesterday and complimented the heck out of him. He is feeling so wanted.</p>
<p>Interestingly, before this past week, my son was really starting to develop warm, fuzzy feelings for Miami. They have treated him like GOLD. He still thinks the world of that school now.</p>
<p>I realize that it doesn't matter one whit to Yale what my son now thinks of it, but he has lost ALL affection and respect for that school, not because of the rejection but rather because of the adcom's poor judgment in his email response.</p>
<p>Thanks for your posts! ~b.</p>
<p>I don't think I've expressed any "attitude" towards you except that you are obviously a very loving mother, who is emotionally invested in your son. That's something I genuinely respect. If any other "attitude" came through my post, well, it wasn't intended.</p>
<p>The ONLY thing I disagree with you about was that the Yale staffer's response to your question was "inappropriate." Saying that I disagree with you about that doesn't mean I've got some "attitude" towards you. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but the fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I have some problem with you as a person.</p>
<p>Berurah:</p>
<p>LOL! I also think your S is the cat's meow! And the siblings sound terrific, too.
I understand totally why you wanted to explain how you came to start the dreams denied thread. It's hard not to feel down after such a letter that purported to speak on behalf of all elite schools. And when it gets to the homestretch, it's even harder. But, hey, the Yale adcom was wrong! I think that epidiemology research at Duke has to be wonderful. A great match for your S in every way.</p>
<p>jonri - I don't want to get into all of this debate about attitude and whatever, as it is not a very productive or pleasant discussion. Hoewever, you did say that Berurah's son's essays were probably not read by Duke at all. Since a Duke representative called him and discussed his essays in detail and praised him for them, it is pretty obvious that Duke did read his essays and was impressed with what he had to say in them.</p>
<p>marite,</p>
<p>
[quote]
I understand totally why you wanted to explain how you came to start the dreams denied thread. It's hard not to feel down after such a letter that purported to speak on behalf of all elite schools.
[/quote]
This is all there was to it, really, honestly. I thank you for understanding. Your support has been unwavering, sustaining, and most appreciated. If I am not mistaken, you answered my very first post on this forum, and you have stuck by us 'til the end. Many hugs to you, marite.</p>
<p>MotherOfTwo,</p>
<p>
[quote]
Hoewever, you did say that Berurah's son's essays were probably not read by Duke at all. Since a Duke representative called him and discussed his essays in detail and praised him for them, it is pretty obvious that Duke did read his essays and was impressed with what he had to say in them.
[/quote]
Exactly! Gracias.</p>
<p>jonri,</p>
<p>IF if have completely read something into your post that was not present in its intent, I offer a most gracious and humble apology. Regardless, I offer you peace. I have no intention of offering any further defense of myself or my son. This original post was located in the thread re: my son's Duke acceptance. Since that post is mostly read by those who have rejoiced with us in our unexpected triumph, I decided to share a very personal event (still, with the realization that this is public forum). It was lastbastion's decision to copy and paste my post and use it as a jumping off point for this discussion. So you see, I think our (mine and lastbastion's) reasons for posting this were quite different. Please take that into consideration. I had already received some very good advice about the lack of prudence of my son's seeking that feedback, and I had already conceded that he was probably in the wrong. There was no need to beat a dead horse here, IMHO.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>Having just read another thread started by a parent who was heartsick at the rejections and waitlists in the mail at her house, and another upset that without merit her child wouldn't go to his or her dream school, I think that Berurah's thread on dreams denied and the advice of others posted there surely helped many families facing these kinds of situations. </p>
<p>I also think that the discussion that ensued about whether or not to seek feedback after a rejection will help others in future years. </p>
<p>What's posted is posted - let's turn our energies to celebrating the acceptances, helping CC kids/families as they make hard decisions, and supporting those with disappointments with both moral support and advice on concrete actions they can take as they move on, and move on ourselves.</p>
<p>I am off to a lacrosse game. S still has decisions to make and we are eagerly awaiting the last letter - news on a scholarship that may make a difference - but right now, the game takes priority! See ya all later!</p>