<p>wish,</p>
<p>Thanks for trying to infuse some perspective into this discussion. In honor of my newfound perspective, I am not going to make any further comment on jonri's post. Peace to all! ~berurah</p>
<p>Berurah, I wrote you and S a too long winded post congratulating you both for the wonderful news, but I have lost a number of posts that I made yesterday because the computer is just moving so slowly, and apparently I was obliterating my own posts before they "caught". Have to redo Susan's and a number of others' as well which is discouraging as they were all heartfelt posts, and I am a bit resentful about having to repost. But....CONGRATULATIONS!!! ENJOY! CELEBRATE! HUGS ALL AROUND! </p>
<p>Please do understand that there is very much a lottery element with the most selective schools. If your student is a runner and writes an essay on running and it's his main EC, and he is lucky enough that his admissions reader is a runner too, it's going to make a difference. If you are so unlucky to get a reader who is just tired of all those premeds, maybe a dropout premed himself, he may barely read that fantastic research paper. Other than the head of admissions, the rest of the adcoms don't make as much as the cost of an education at some of these schools. As one of the more interesting essay books (Harry someone ) says,as he introduces a sample board of adcoms, "They aren't exactly the Nobel Prize Committee". (You've got to get that book for your other kids' college essays-it is entertaining and gives some great perspectives). So do bear in mind that your S could have just been unlucky as to who evaluated his app. Simple as that. Given that the admissions committees of these schools should really be called the rejections committe, since that is really what their job is, to eliminate, cull, reject all but the small number the school can take, most apps are going to be rejected. Unless you are the that small group that meshes with the college's wish list for the year, your chances are infinitismally smaller than the published numbers. This is not to say that kids should not apply, in that there is always that chance, and if your name ain't in the hat, it ain't gonna be pulled, but as one poster stated, the expectations should be managed that so that it is a lovely surprise. You should no more expect to get in than you would to win a raffle or lottery. And everyone should have several realistic choices too cuz it just feels alot better to be able to choose from a few schools even if they are not your top choices, rather than feeling that you are stuck at your safety school. I do, however, feel that the regional rep was most unhelpful and out of his place referring to other colleges. I am going to assume that his remarks were indeed his opinion of the app as they fit into his picture of what a Yale applicant from his region was. </p>
<p>Anyways, do keep us posted. Have the aid/merit packages come through yet. My fingers are crossed for you. Big hugs to your son.</p>
<p>I find the AC's comment to be pure gold. If you ask the question, you must be ready for the hard answers. It was a great chance to reevaluate the ap.</p>
<p>Anyway, best of luck on the final choices!</p>
<p>The book is by "Harry Bauld." Just for you I got up and went to the bookcase to find it. The title is "On Writing the College Application Essay." I second the recommendation.</p>
<p>This is off-topic, but Harry Bauld's On Writing the College Application Essay is my favorite book ever on both admissions and writing. A former admissions officer at Brown and Columbia, he's not only brilliant but irresistibly funny.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I find the AC's comment to be pure gold.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>bettina,</p>
<p>I am SO glad that one of us enjoyed it! Too bad it was at my son's expense. </p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>I don't understand. If I've already explained how very hurtful that comment was to us, why would ANYONE say this?</p>
<p>
[quote]
I find the AC's comment to be pure gold.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Someone please explain this to me?? :(</p>
<p>I wouldn't do that to ANYONE, even if it WERE my opinion. It would remain my little secret.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>jami,</p>
<p>Thanks so much for the congrats!! We are still on CLOUD 9!!!!!!!!!!!! I so appreciate all of the support you've shown over these many months. I owe you more than I could ever repay! love, ~berurah</p>
<p>I think the Yale Adcoms explanation was pure @#%! S/he was not specific enough for your son to take action and s/he certainly lacked authority to speak for several other highly selective schools. After a couple of years of following who gets in and who doesnt get in, the patterns far from being obvious appear even more random. My conclusion: there is absolutely no point in analyzing a rejection.</p>
<p>When we visited Brown the adcom member (who was also a recent alum) who conducted the info session told what I thought at the time was an annoying, interminable and meaningless story. In retrospect, the image he painted has resonated with me many times over the years. He said that the process is like going into Aladdins cave. The adcom runs in, grabs as many jewels (qualified kids) as they can carry/admit, then runs out before the doors to the cave close. They have armsful of emeralds, diamonds and rubies but there are still heaps of precious jewels left in the cave. You or your child, he said, may be the jewel left in the cave, the innocent victim of an imperfect process.</p>
<p>Berurah,
Hearty congrats on your son's stellar successes. I have no insight in particular to the process at Yale or any other school. I do think that over time, however, the lesson learned from an initial negative experience followed by so much success will be even more valuable and important than ANYTHING he could possibly have learned at Yale. </p>
<p>Best...</p>
<p>Yeah, right. Just what parents want to hear, rather than "We didn't take your son 'cause we knew he was inferior."</p>
<p>Dear friends - adcoms are professional people. They do this for a living. There are maybe 300-400 senior adcoms at the 100 top schools in the country. They all know each other. They all know the GCs at the major feeder schools. They have collectively hundreds of years of experience. They take week-long courses in yield management, in financial aid management, in statistical analysis. They study. They work extremely long hours. They get strict directives from the Office of the President and the Boards of Trustees. NOTHING is left to chance - from the institution's point of view. There is NO lottery. They serve their bosses by serving their customers, and since they know that they will have many, many more customers who paid $60-$70 to them and will be unhappy with the result than those who are happy, they have to come up with all kinds of stories to mollify the unsatisfied. </p>
<p>Have any of you ever worked in public relations? Or the public relations related to putting in a nuclear dumpsite, or a new landfill? That's what it is like. One has to be very creative to get the job done, and save some good will for the next go-round (there are always younger sibling, kids from the same neighborhood, and more contacts with the same disappointed GC. If you were in their shoes, you'd do pretty much the same thing.</p>
<p>It was an annoying, interminable, and meaningless story. There are only three stories (and variations of same) they can tell: 1) "There were so many, and we only take the few, the proud." While this one smarts when you hear it, it adds to the institution's panache. So this is the one you usually get in the rejection letter. 2) "Well, your application was okay, but it was really your fault that you didn't get in, because you didn't measure up." That one stings plenty, but it gets the institution off the hook, and shifts the burden onto you, dear parent, because you sinned and dear boy failed as a result. 3) "It's really just a lottery out there. Today just wasn't your lucky day." This one stings least, but is the most nonsensical of the bunch. It basically says that adcoms aren't really necessary, because you could put all the applications in a fishbowl, drop them out the window, or on the stairs, yadda, yadda, yadda. It's so obviously a falsehood, it is hardly worth addressing. If lottery ruled, there would be Ivy League football teams without quarterbacks, the colleges would insult its biggest contributors on a regular basis, the symphony would occasionally have 78 violins, 4 tubas, and no cellos, and once out of every ten years, financial aid would be busted. Oh, and no GC would ever talk to them again.</p>
<p>Pick the story that feels the best, and move on.</p>
<p>Mini, I too absolutely loved your post! I wish I would have had it three years ago - D wouldn't care, but it would have made me laugh very hard a lot faster. </p>
<p>Berurah - somehow I missed the exchange with the adcom in the original post. Not that it matters now, but I had a bit of an issue with Yale. D went to her interview - an MD, department chair etc. - 60-ish gentlemen. For some reason we were sharing my car that day, so I stayed in the parking lot and worked on my laptop while she was in the interview - and I remember it was 90+ minutes, because my battery finally gave. </p>
<p>Anyway, on the drive back to the school after the interview, D tells me that the majority of the interview was taken up with this nice doctor telling her how much she was going to enjoy Yale, what her experiences would be like, how to pick her classes, how to get lined up for the best dorms, and he even spent 20 or so minutes telling her what kind of a new wardrobe she should select (we live where it is very warm and we never need coats etc.). </p>
<p>He actually then made a list for her - right there during the interview - of the things like boots, gloves, outerwear, etc. - and then directed her to the stores where she might buy such things; he even urged her to buy early - like we should get started that very week - anyway, the majority of the interview was this man talking in a way that any reasonable person would believe that acceptance was all but done. The interview actually ended with "you will be receiving very good news from Yale in April". That's an exact quote according to D - so she was actually sort of believing that Yale was in the bag. </p>
<p>Later that day I called the GC at D's school wanting to share the "good news", and related the discussion to her. Thank heavens, she told me exactly this: "do not take any interview seriously, ever. ALL interviews go well and sound good. Do not take this one seriously, and DO NOT believe that his comments are indicative of any likelihood of admission."</p>
<p>That was of course excellent advice; I related her comments to D later (plus D went to see the GC that day as well anyway) - so when the rejection came in April it was not a surprise. </p>
<p>I wonder if perhaps its best to not take any communication with any adcom, interviewer etc. with anything more than a grain of salt.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think the Yale Adcoms explanation was pure @#%! S/he was not specific enough for your son to take action and s/he certainly lacked authority to speak for several other highly selective schools. After a couple of years of following who gets in and who doesnt get in, the patterns far from being obvious appear even more random. My conclusion: there is absolutely no point in analyzing a rejection.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>momrath,</p>
<p>You are so very correct when you say that there were not enough specifics given to be helpful, only enough pompousness to be hurtful. At this point I concur with you COMPLETELY. There is NO point in analyzing a rejection. It was, at the time, very difficult for my very analytical son to understand this, but he does now. The adcom's story about Aladdin's cave was priceless. Thank you so much for relating it, and for your kind support. I was feeling pretty battered.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>roby,</p>
<p>
[quote]
I do think that over time, however, the lesson learned from an initial negative experience followed by so much success will be even more valuable and important than ANYTHING he could possibly have learned at Yale.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You are a very wise woman. This is the most accurate of assessments I've seen on this issue. I thank you for your congrats, your kindness, and your keen insight. </p>
<p>love, ~berurah</p>
<p>". ALL interviews go well and sound good. Do not take this one seriously, and DO NOT believe that his comments are indicative of any likelihood of admission."</p>
<p>"</p>
<p>It's true that no interviewer except perhaps an adcom should be giving odds about admission.</p>
<p>However, not all interviews go well. I have interviewed students who obviously lied in interviews or were so obviously bored, coached, rude or superficial that they clearly hurt their admissions chances. Such problems are unusual, but they do happen. Most students, however, do interview well.</p>
<p>"Loved your post, Mini. I may contribute a similarly scathing one for one of my S's schools - where he got in but got no money - once all is signed, sealed, and delivered! We could start a new strand that would be scathingly funny and that might allow us all to let off some stream!"</p>
<p>Gosh, and I wasn't even trying to be funny - just truthful! ;)</p>
<p>Mini, actually your fictional letter would have been easier to take were I the recipient of both letters. Berurah's son was operating on the idea that there must have been something wrong with his application as if there were some objective line above which one must have one's application. The adcom plays into that world view by showing the weak points of the application. Your letter lets me know that if I were a trombone player with that same essay I would get in. This is a more adult view of the world. "I didn't get that job with that company because I wasn't what they were looking for."
Now as to the tone of the letter, I think he could have done better. There was a series of posts on another thread re: the Meiers_Briggs profile. The dean of our Medical School used to have an introductory session in which he would test the incoming students. As a demonstration he would send five Feelers, people who make their decisions based upon feelings, out of the room with the task of picking which nine players out of 18 on a little league baseball team they would take to the national championship as that was all the budget they had. He would send out five Thinkers, people who make their decisions by thinking, with the same assignment. The five Thinkers would come back with a plan which said something about taking the best pitcher and catcher, putting the best hitters in the out field etc. The Feelers would come back with a plan for a bake sale, a car wash, baby sitting etc. For the feelers leaving any kid behind is not an option. I myself am a feeler. That is why I feel Berurah's son's pain when I read the letter. But as Mini pointed out in another form earlier there are probably not many people in admissions who are strong in the F scale. We would let everyone in. On the other hand the Thinkers probably need to have a Feeler in their office to proof read letters and emails to students who have been rejected. Letters to accepted students don't need proof reading.
As Mark Twain said to his wife after she repeated back all of the cursing he had uttered after cutting himself shaving, "You have the words right , my Dear, but you don't quite have the melody."</p>
<p>So, as I suggested, you don't approve of his public relations skills. You think he should have stayed with story #1 ("the Few, the Proud") or story #3 ("He's the Jewel that Got Left Behind" crapola). Perhaps they should pretest the parents first to know which rejection explanation to send. ;)</p>
<p>Mini, I would have prefered your letter. It's the truth and more like what we get in adult life. "You weren't what we needed."</p>
<p>Well, it is the most truthful one. When the odds are actually 1 out of 20ish (which they are for a WONDERFUL unhooked applicant requiring financial aid at the very top schools), applying to 10 of them still means the odds of getting into any of them are no better than 50/50.</p>
<p>And it's that way precisely because it ISN'T a lottery.</p>