<p>mini,</p>
<p>I think the adcom has the right say anything he da** well wishes to say. What I took issue with was his claim that he was speaking for any school other than Yale. Clearly he wasn't.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>PS to ellemenope: As I understand it, your D didn't ask why she didn't get into Yale..and thus was NOT told that her essays or recs weren't good enough for other elite schools. There's no reason to think that if your D had asked, that would have been the response.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>No, but that was the response given by the Yale adcom in the original post in this thread. I think the point is that it was presumptious for the adcom to suggest he knew what sort of ECs and recs were good enough for elite schools other than his own, as evidenced by the students who get rejected by Yale but admitted by Harvard or other elite schools and vice versa. He clearly shouldn't attempt to speak to what those other schools will or won't take.</p>
<p>Below is the gist of S's Yale rejection letter - (btw, he said that there were four other Emory Scholar finalists this weekend who applied Yale EA, were deferred, then rejected - must be a new disease, like the avian flu).</p>
<p>
[quote]
I realize that this decision may come as a disappointment to you. I hope that you will understand it in the light of the extraordinary talent represented in our applicant pool rather than as a judgement about your own abilities.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>A suitable answer to this might be "Thank you for considering my application. I am fortunate that (two higher ranking universities) did appreciate my extraordinary talents, and I will attend one of those colleges in the fall." </p>
<p>They probably think that this approach is a gentle rejection, but I believe it reveals the arrogance that was evident in the more over-the-top letter from the adcom quoted earlier.</p>
<p>I'd like to clear up something, since it was my son who received the letter from the adcom. The adcom didn't exactly come right out and say that the essays were not adequate. He said that the my son was competitive in terms of test scores and transcript, but that Yale also looks at things like ECs, essays, and teacher recs. Therefore, it was <em>implied</em> that those things may be lacking, not stated outright. As a result, NO concrete advice was given whatsoever regarding how to improve any part of the app (or frankly, if any parts of the app NEEDED improvement at all). This thread has, like many threads, gone off on tangents, but again, I must stress that the major objection I had was with the adcom's claim that he spoke for ANY school other than Yale. I don't believe that he had the authority to do so.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>yulsie,
I am curious about what you would have thought would be an appropriate rejection letter. Honestly, what you quoted did seem to me to be a gentle rejection letter.</p>
<p>I think that experienced adcoms know that just because they rejected an applicant doesn't mean that a more competitive college also will reject the person. I keep thinking that the e-mail that the OP's son got was probably sent by a new adcom. My guess is that an experienced adcom wouldn't have bothered taking the time to look up the student's application and to attempt to give a personal reply.</p>
<p>An experienced adcom probably would have realized that there was nothing that s/he could do to alleviate the sting of a rejection, so the adcom would have sent a very brief form reply.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A suitable answer to this might be "Thank you for considering my application. I am fortunate that (two higher ranking universities) did appreciate my extraordinary talents, and I will attend one of those colleges in the fall."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>TOUCHE!!!! <em>lol</em> </p>
<p>If he had gotten this in the EA round, he would have gotten what MY son did--It went something like this: We sure hope you have other apps. in the works. <em>lol</em></p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>Northstarmom, their line about putting it down to 'the extraordinary talent represented in the applicant pool' implies that all (or most) of the applicants were more talented than the receiver of the letter.</p>
<p>A more honest letter would have been better, something to the effect that their desire to admit a well-rounded class with diverse talents and experiences meant that many extraordinary applicants would not be able to be admitted. That's closer to the truth and much more polite. Just ask Ms. Manners in the Washington Post.</p>
<p>"Northstarmom, their line about putting it down to 'the extraordinary talent represented in the applicant pool' implies that all (or most) of the applicants were more talented than the receiver of the letter."</p>
<p>I read it as "the pool of extraordinary talent was deep, and we didn't have room to take everyone." To me the student receiving the rejection was considered by the writer as being among the "extraordinary talent" in the application grou</p>
<p>I think that no matter how carefully and politely the letter is worded, many rejected students will still feel insulted because it's hurtful to be turned down.</p>
<p>as a amateur collector of reject letters(mine) I found Brown's to be the nicest. They said something to the effect of "Your denial of admission to brown is as much a loss to brown as it was dissapointing to you" something to that effect. It was much nicer than Yale's which was 1 paragraph and had the standard more qualified applicants etc etc(Yale's fee was highest at $75, for that money , I expect personalization! jk)</p>
<p>And yes, I do think that the college admissions is a lottery for MOST, not all. After all, if you were Fitzsimmons Jr. or Shaw Jr. or Rapeleye Jr. you are pretty much guaranteed a spot. For most applicants it is a lottery. The same essay which got me a personal hadwritten postcard from Duke( what a nice touch!) also got me waitlisted and rejected at less selective schools. Ultimately, however, I am happy with the outcome because I am satisfied in knowing that in all the promotional literature they send out, they won't be able to claim me as an alum!(yes, the previous statement was arrogant :)) Then, of course, I would never really expect something like the Frist Campus center because my name is as unpronouncable as pkrtchdian.... try that when you're tired :D</p>
<p>"mini,</p>
<p>I think the adcom has the right say anything he da** well wishes to say. What I took issue with was his claim that he was speaking for any school other than Yale. Clearly he wasn't."</p>
<p>Tis true. And regardless of whether he chooses story #1, 2, or 3, it will still be a story.</p>
<p>"A more honest letter would have been better, something to the effect that their desire to admit a well-rounded class with diverse talents and experiences meant that many extraordinary applicants would not be able to be admitted."</p>
<p>And money - statistically, that turns out to be most important of all in bettering the odds in the NON-LOTTERY. (But story #1 ' "the few, the proud" is surely the safest story, which is why that's the one they use most often. I know I would, if I were in their shoes.</p>
<p>I kind of liked Harvey Mudd's rejection letter. If I'm remembering right, after rejecting my S, they outlined what he should do if he wanted to apply as a transfer student the following year.</p>
<p>Back when, my son applied to just one Ivy (Harvard). He didn't get accepted. But he didn't "expect" to get accepted, and he wasn't determined to get into "Ivy" generically. So he just viewed it as a lottery option and bought the one ticket.</p>
<p>While certainly after the fact, we can recognize that the overwhelming majority of students admitted to HYP and the other Ivies are very talented, accomplished, and promising, there are many chance factors that may work against a particular applicant -- not least of all the fact that there are far more talented, accomplished, and promising applicants than any highly selective school can admit. And so, we play the lottery just to try our luck but we also shop very hard for "value" and "fit" and lo and behold if we play this right, including having suitable backups, we are likely to win every time.</p>
<p>"...When the odds are actually 1 out of 20ish (which they are for a WONDERFUL unhooked applicant requiring financial aid at the very top schools), applying to 10 of them still means the odds of getting into any of them are no better than 50/50.</p>
<p>And it's that way precisely because it ISN'T a lottery." (from one of Mini's posts)</p>
<p>So, if I understand this correctly, even for the BWRK with 1:20 odds, it isn't a lottery - because the tuba player may get in over the astronomy major, since they need a tuba player more? </p>
<p>However, since the tuba player and the astonomy major don't know what the school "needs," when they decide to apply, it SEEMS like a lottery. It would be as if we were buying lottery tickets - picking our "lucky" numbers - but instead of a random draw, the ivies/most selective schools already had the numbers picked and they were just waiting to see what lottery tickets arrived, to fit them into the winners list. Yes?</p>
<p>" kind of liked Harvey Mudd's rejection letter. If I'm remembering right, after rejecting my S, they outlined what he should do if he wanted to apply as a transfer student the following year.
"</p>
<p>That is a nice touch for colleges to do that take reasonably large numbers of transfer students. For places like Harvard, which plans to take 70 out of 1,000 transfer applications this year, providing such info to rejected applicants would be only giving very false hope.</p>
<p>"as a amateur collector of reject letters(mine) I found Brown's to be the nicest. They said something to the effect of "Your denial of admission to brown is as much a loss to brown as it was dissapointing to you" </p>
<p>I don't like that kind of rejection letter. I find it condescending. I doubt that the adcoms are sobbing their hearts out over rejecting an individual student who is, indeed, sobbing his/her heart out over the rejection.</p>
<p>Of course, no adcom is going to describe their admissions process as a lottery, and few admitted students would attribute their own admission to luck (they worked too damn hard to get there). But as "wish" says there are many chance factors over which the student has no control and little basis for predicting success. And so for all intents and purposes it is a lottery for many of those students when the overall odds of admission are already very low.</p>
<p>I think Berurah hit the heart of the matter regarding the Yale adcom's response. Whatever his opinion was of the app regarding Yale is what at least partially if not entirely what directed the outcome--denial from Yale. That is all, the guy was able to effectively critique. Clearly, he cannot speak for other schools, and being in the business he should have known that. To make a prediction or commentary on other schools does nothing but upset the kid and the process UNLESS there was truly something that was in the package that was going to sink him nearly anywhere, which was clearly not the case. A remark like "failing English Sophomore year is a problem" would be such a remark, and if you did not fail English sophomore year, you just might want to double check that transcript. I feel the adcom simply overstepped his bounds. Of course he could say anything he wants regarding his assessment of the app for Yale, as that is the question asked, and that was the reason denied whether Berurah and son like it or not. But I don't believe that Berurah or son were so upset about the comments as much as the panic instilled when he made his predictions about other selective schools. </p>
<p>My friend's son called UMIch when he was so quickly rejected from the MT program there, and went over the audition sheets with the adcom of the music school. It was not as helpful as he would have liked because the reasons were vague, and nothing he could really do to help him with future auditions, but he did get a reason why he was rejected there. Not once was any comment made about any other schools or auditions, simply because , there truly was not any glaring reason for rejection that could be changed. However, another young lady who went through such a postmortem did get some comments and suggestions that were relevant to other schools and auditions. The school felt that her body movements were distracting during the audition and not in synch with what was coming out of her mouth. She got some independent feedback from someone, who did agree and tempered those movements. So you can get specific feedback that helps but it is really up to you as to whether the reasons contributing to a denial would apply to another school, and I just don't think unless it is a universally problematic thing or a flame right out there, the adcom should be predicting doomsday for other schools. </p>
<p>A funny story. An athletic recruit who applied to some very top schools was denied at Penn, and called to ask why. He was told that his test scores and grade were too low for any school of that calibre--the athletic band had been taken off of the file there. Actually, the whole thing was a big mistake as he was actually admitted--dual files were there--some athletes send a copy to the athletic office along with one to admissions so that the athletic director can go over the copy as he negotiates with admissions. Not only did he get into Penn--early, but had other top ivies looking for an early commit if he did not get into Penn. </p>
<p>And though I do agree with Mini, that there are many fixed factors in the admissions process, there is also the lottery element as well. I have had a number of near identical applicants applying to the same school, and perhaps one is admitted. They wouldn't be able to pick their own app out of such a stack. A certain number of high scoring BWRKs get in each year, and for all I know they throw their ssns on a piece of paper and draw those from the hat. I see no discernable pattern--the one needing some financial aid may well be taken over one who does not. Same geographics, near identical resumes. same ECs, same regular old essays.</p>
<p>"However, since the tuba player and the astonomy major don't know what the school "needs," when they decide to apply, it SEEMS like a lottery. It would be as if we were buying lottery tickets - picking our "lucky" numbers - but instead of a random draw, the ivies/most selective schools already had the numbers picked and they were just waiting to see what lottery tickets arrived, to fit them into the winners list. Yes.?"</p>
<p>It is rather more like applying for a job in a factory that produces a very large, complex product. When you are applying, you don't actually know what job skills they need to perform the specific task they need filling. In fact, once you are there, you barely ever get sight of the final product! To you, it all seems like a lottery. To the factory manager, company owner, and board, they know precisely what they are looking for, and, for the most part, know where they will find the workers to fill the slots. They don't need to look at individuals at all because, from their point of view, in the larger scheme of things, individuals don't count - they are just trying to fulfill their institutional mission. Most of you would likely be shocked to discover how little time is actually spent on your kids' application - but imagine a job situation where there were 500 applicants applying for 25 positions, and it would basically be the same.</p>
<p>Adcoms know how to do that - scientifically, and with precision, leaving almost nothing to chance, precisely because they don't spend much time looking at individuals. If it were a lottery, they'd always end up with some slots unfilled, or the costs of filling them would rise. (Isn't it AMAZING that at all of these so-called "need-blind" schools, they virtually always end up with the same percentage requiring financial aid attending? With the same percentage of private school folks? With the right number of football players? Now to rely on a lottery to get such results would be the height of stupidity.)</p>
<p>What feels like a lottery is, as you note, in fact lack of good information. If you knew your were the fourth best tuba player (all other stats being equal), and the three best were appying to School Y, you might apply to School Y, but it wouldn't be a lottery when you didn't get in. And, to be safe, you'd need to apply to four schools needing tuba players. Without the information, it might appear to be lottery, but the reality is that the lottery explanation is the one that is furthest from the truth. We don't see the big picture - adcoms DO - and are paid big bucks to do so. And it helps if they can make you believe it is a lottery (Story #3: "The Jewel They Left Behind") because it takes the sting out. Doesn't matter that it isn't true. It's just a good public relations story. It's an awful lot better than hearing, "Sorry. You were just as accomplished, just as qualifed, as the student we took, but your parents aren't rich enough. Better luck in the next lifetime."</p>
<p>
[quote]
But I don't believe that Berurah or son were so upset about the comments as much as the panic instilled when he made his predictions about other selective schools.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Could it be.....could it ACTUALLY BE....that someone (jamimom!) actually GETS it??????????????? Wonder of wonders, miracle of miracles! </p>
<p>~b.</p>
<p>I get it,too, berurah! (Me too, me too!) There is nothing like fear to make this process move from exploration of wonderful possiblities to a form of slow torture. I am just so glad that that is over now, and that you have so much to look forward to with your precious son.</p>