<p>Marleys_ghost…what’s your major?</p>
<p>
Why should I have to suggest any? Would you prefer someone not tell you that you’re about to drive off on a flat tire unless they were prepared to fix it for you?</p>
<p>I agree with the 2nd part of your post; if you though about the issues & understand what you’re getting into but still think its better than any other alternative you have/want, then do it. My part has been pointing out the pitfalls of the career, things your HS counselor and parents probably don’t know and don’t tell you, at a time when you can easily choose an alternative (should there be one for you).</p>
<p>As for posting starting salaries, so what? I said at the very start of the thread in item 7 “Many HS students are attracted by the high starting salaries for engineers. However don’t be misled by the number that applies at one point in your life. You will be working for 30+ years and you need to consider what happens over that span.” </p>
<p>The mid career numbers are suspect. Go find me someone working in “economics” as opposed to someone with an economics degree; same with “interdisciplinary studies” and so on. The list has nowhere near enough resolution to make an informed choice.
Admit it, you just made that up when you typed it in. You have never seen career surveys or articles by college-based career counselors that show this, you don’t have personal experience in industry seeing people do this. It just sounded good and so you typed it in. Its true a few years back that grads from top programs were going to Wall Street, but that stream seems to have dried up recently ;)</p>
<p>What a bunch of garbage. Not it is not made up, and yes I <em>do</em> have experience with the industry. Whatever your personal gripe is with the industry, deal with it. You have been rehashing this same <em>SAME</em> post for 5 years. If you are so miserable, go to nursing school. Good pay, lots of females. But oh, you might have to work with those “undesirables” . Oh the shame. Not wasting any more time with this long time ■■■■■.</p>
<p>An note about the Payscale.com list provided earlier; the numbers themselves turn out to be pretty suspect. On the one hand you have the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, for example, that reports the median salary of Electrical Engineers at $82K, versus the table above that manages to dig up $103K. Or the BLS says petroleum engineers earn a median of $108K, a nice number, but far short of the $155K that the list above found. The list above has their starting salary at $98K, the BLS says its 15% less. See Bureau of Labor Statistics, U.S. Department of Labor, Occupational Outlook Handbook, 2010-11 Edition at [url=<a href=“http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm]Engineers[/url”>http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm]Engineers[/url</a>]</p>
<p>Why the difference? Well, follow the link above and you’ll find this
So in other words they’re from people who bothered to return the salary survey to this PayScale company that nobody’s ever heard of. Your parents work; go ask them “did you get a survey?” No, they didn’t, and probably nobody else you know who works full time did either. The salaries may be based on a handful of responses, by people that have no incentive not to add something on. </p>
<p>The BLS numbers come from a monthly survey done by the US Census Bureau. Since their numbers are so different than Payscale.com you have to decide which has more credibility. For me, its an easy decision; I’m going to go with the numbers from U.S. Department of Labor Occupational Outlook Handbook.</p>
<p>
I said this is BS, to which the only content that shows up in reply is
Gee, but how about listing some of these fields that many of the folks who start in engineering transition to with that solid foundation? It would have only taken a few seconds to type a couple in, and should be easy if “many” engineers are doing it. Truth is you can’t because its a made-up claim, and if you listed some areas where these “many” people are transitioning people would quickly realize the weakness of your claim. </p>
<p>But I see you’re waving the moral outrage flag to excuse yourself from actually having to list any facts supporting your claim.</p>
<p>Since this is a math & science oriented thread, I have to say not bothering to produce reminds me so much of that charming story about Fermat’s Last Theorem in which he wrote “I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of this, which this margin is too narrow to contain.” But this time without the charm…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Because if engineering so awful, surely you can think of some subject or career that is better. Or is it that your whole argument will collapse when every other career that you suggest has most of the same pitfalls to varying degrees (as well as other pitfalls unique to it)?</p>
<p>Of course, your claims at the beginning of the thread are incorrect in any case.</p>
<ol>
<li> Engineering students do have fun in college. Perhaps they spend more time studying – but they are studying something that is interesting to them. In any case, the purpose of college is to learn, not to drunkenly party all the time.</li>
<li> Engineering students studying what is interesting to them. And they typically take a lot more humanities and social studies courses than humanities and social studies majors take math, science, and engineering courses.</li>
<li> Most jobs and careers are in major metropolitan areas. This is particularly true of high skill, high pay jobs.</li>
<li> Excessive hours is a potential issue in any salaried job; I have not seen it particularly worse in engineering than in others. Work in an hourly job with overtime pay if you do not like the idea of being on salary.</li>
<li> Yes, lots of men. But your workplace is not your dating service (and workplace romance tends to be trouble anyway, so even straight women and gay men may want to be careful about that).</li>
<li> So what? Do you dislike people who were born in foreign countries?</li>
<li> Midcareer pay numbers disprove this claim. Yes, some liberal arts majors do very well (especially if they have completed JD, MD, or MBA degrees, which do not exclude engineers from studying to them), but many do not.</li>
<li> That is not unique to engineering.</li>
<li> Untrue. Engineers are commonly tapped to manage engineering organizations, since they have better understanding of the issues involved. (No MBA needed.) Of course, most people in any type of job are not managers.</li>
<li> And the long term outlook for most jobs, or the entire economy, looks dismal to a lot of people.</li>
</ol>
<p>Ucbalmunus has a strong point marleys_ghost.
If you think Engineering isn’t the best choice you obviously have to recommend another major.
Inb4 liberal art garbage.</p>
<p>I liked UCB’s post #107. </p>
<p>“Of course, if you don’t like doing engineering, then don’t do it,” - Exactly. Those that like it will thrive on the challenge and enjoy their college years. And their problem solving skills will be useful in many ways down the road. </p>
<p>Having said that… the trick for students is figuring out if engineering is a good fit while still in HS. They may or may not have had enough intenste math/science and problem solving to know for sure. Often it makes sense to pick a college with other majors also available.</p>
<p>So tired of your insults, ■■■■■. Good bye.</p>
<p>I’m curious, Marleys_Ghost, about your thoughts on UCB’s post… </p>
<p>I’m not in disagreement with you. I’m just wondering what you think…</p>
<p>
I do appreciate that he/she took the time to read the points I made. I think if you look back at the first posts, though, you’ll see that I provide links and evidence that you can independently check to see whether I’m right or not, whereas UCB’s post is basically saying “not so” and to take that on faith. Read my original posts, put them next to UCB’s, decide for yourself which you believe (or think you should investigate further on your own).</p>
<p>I did get a kick out of the posts by jym626. He’s playing a debating game in which you never agree with the other person. Its a fun way to pass time if you’re talking about the best quarterback this year or the best beer, not so pleasant when you’re advising college students about career choice. I can imagine him reading the quotes I gave about the so-so prospects in the engineering job market (posts 95-97) and deciding to play the game. Since I gave several sources about the engineering job market, to play the debating game he had to find a way to say in effect ‘so what?’ So out pops “Many folks start in engineering and , with that solid foundation, transition into other related fields.” Replies like this are how you play the game, never concede a point. Notice how he never says whether this “transition” happens after working as an engineer a couple of years or if its just after graduation, and how in 2 angry replies he couldn’t be troubled to name any these fields that “many folks” are transitioning into, etc. Its because its a complete invention, and if he gave any specifics that would become obvious.</p>
<p>Glad you find my posts so amusing , mg. I have zero interest in playing your game, or reviewing selected stale stats. I will not disclose personal information about friends/family other than to tell you that some transition into higher management and some into development/prototype design. They have been quite satisfied, unlike you. If you are so miserable, go complain somewhere else. And fyi, I am not a “he”. Now go pester someone else. I am done with your trolling. Go bait someone else.</p>
<p>marleys_ghost,
In my opinion, ucbalumnus’s post effectively counters the points that you raised (or at least warrants further discussion or a rebuttal).</p>
<p>This whole thing is ridiculous. For one thing, engineers (or should I say <em>happy</em> engineers) are BORN, not made. I am married to someone with an engineering degree. (We met in college and we had FUN!!!) Since early childhood he’s been curious about how things are made. He’s been in the IT field for the last 20 or so years and makes an excellent salary <em>because</em> of his engineering background. Our son is a freshman majoring in engineering. There was never any doubt that this was the path for him. Potential salary or future job prospects played a very small part in the discussion about college plans. Again, since childhood it was obvious he had an engineering mind. (Thank goodness his math skills match!) He would be so unhappy majoring in something that doesn’t interest him… </p>
<p>I know, I know, this is <em>anecdotal</em> and the OP will dismiss it. He sounds miserable, and “insufferable” as a previous poster indicated. I truly doubt he’s concerned about anyone considering engineering school. SMH</p>
<p>BTW—jym626, I’m in total agreement with you. The OP ■■■■■ gets his jollies out of stirring the pot. He needs to get a life. Let’s end this thread.</p>
<p>You are spot on, YooperScooper. This is a ■■■■■ thread (started in 2008) that is <em>identical</em> to the ■■■■■ threads he started in 2005 and 2006.</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/584100-dont-go-engineering-college.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/584100-dont-go-engineering-college.html</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/234846-dont-major-engineering.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/234846-dont-major-engineering.html</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/106929-dont-major-engineering.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/106929-dont-major-engineering.html</a></p>
<p>For the umpteenth time, students should major in what they like/enjoy, as yours (and mine) and others have. Unlike old stale links, here’s one from this past spring about college majors. I am sure it will be attacked, as will we, with stupid baiting comments (like previous ones about watching Fox news or some such nonsense.) [Full</a> List - The 20 Best- and Worst-Paid College Majors - TIME](<a href=“http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,2073703,00.html]Full”>http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,2073703,00.html)</p>
<p>My s’s, their engineering classmates, and friends work hard, but make plenty of time for other things. And they are happy, unlike the OP. </p>
<p>Agree that this thread should be shown the door.</p>
<p>Hi all, my daughter(a HS senior) is very strong in the math/sciences - taking calc 2 and 3 during HS but also has a very strong art side - and is very good at it. She has always thought she would major in architecture, but is now looking at engineering schools - the one she will probably be at has both. Given the outlook for the real estate market and thus architects for the next 5-10 years, engineering seems to make more sense. Can anyone contribute information about possible engineering degrees that would allow for more design - and I don’t mean product design. Thanks</p>
<p>pumpkin5, your daughter might want to consider Architectural Engineering, a degree offered by 9 or 10 schools, I believe. Penn State and UT-Austin each have excellent programs. I majored in ArchE because I wanted to concentrate on the structural design of buildings. If I’d majored in civil engineering, I would have had to take classes about design of highways, drainage, etc. UT offers a dual Architecture/Engineering degree, also.</p>
<p>My dad, husband, and I are all structural engineers. It has been a wonderful career for all of us. My husband and I run our own firm, just the two of us, out of our home. Even during this recession, we’ve done well. Things were a little slow last year, but we’re having one of our best years ever in 2011. I would recommend engineering as a career to anyone who loves math and creating things. It makes me happy that I don’t just shuffle paper all day long. My kids go around town and can say, “There’s Mom’s building!”</p>
<p>jym626 earlier writes “He’s a ■■■■■. Doesn’t tell us anything about his education, background, experience. Just comes in yellin and screamin about the perils of a perfectly fine profession and tries to stir up controversy.” </p>
<p>Got me scratching me head on this one, because aside from the fact that I give this info in some of my first posts (but ■■■■■■ like jym626 never bother to read the thread, they just jump in with attacks) he later writes “I will not disclose personal information about friends/family”. </p>
<p>Double standard? Or maybe you’re just “special”?
Ken285, you are of course entitled to your opinion. I think the links and quotes I provided at the top of the thead provide sufficient information for someone to consider the issues or delve further on their own, but if someone is convinced otherwise that’s fine. I think I’ve written down enough of what I wish someone had told me back when I was in college; whether prospective engineers think further about it or not is up to them.</p>
<p>Seems like another poster is passing on the warning – see <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1239973-wsj-if-youre-high-math-student-america-its-crazy-go-into-stem.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1239973-wsj-if-youre-high-math-student-america-its-crazy-go-into-stem.html</a></p>
<p><a href=“https://career.berkeley.edu/Major/EECS.stm[/url]”>https://career.berkeley.edu/Major/EECS.stm</a></p>
<p>Premiere EECS program, doubtless.</p>
<p>Only 48 percent of graduates responded to this institutional employment survey.</p>
<p>Let’s assume for the sake of argument that this means that the 52 percent of graduates that didn’t respond walked away from Cal empty-handed.</p>
<p>Only 55 percent of surveyed respondents are “employed” (full-time? part-time? internship?).</p>
<p>In sum, only 26.33 percent of Cal EECS Class of 2010 graduates had “employment” at graduation time.</p>
<p>–</p>
<p>The intense hostility of boomers at the thought that “working hard” and “pulling oneself up by the bootstraps” are not enough, have never been enough, is ridiculous. Especially with regards to so eminently practical a curriculum as Engineering. To imagine that the droves of engineers that are being churned out yearly are no more “useful” than your average PoliSci $#!^head… quelle horreur.</p>