Don't go to Olin if you want to go to grad school

<p>I'm a '10 alum who wanted to go to grad school, but never did. A friend of my sister's was asking me about going to Olin if she's interested in grad school, and I realized that (for her at least), there were a lot of misconceptions. I decided to resurrect my old CC account to inform those of you still making a decision.</p>

<p>I remember talking to Olin students and the admissions office before I decided to go to Olin regarding this. They assured me that Olin does indeed prepare you well for grad school. They talked to me about some of the cool projects people were doing, showed me grad school placement stats, and I was convinced (plus the free-ride didn't hurt).</p>

<p>There are some things I wish I knew back then.</p>

<p>The main problem is that being a small school, Olin doesn't have a lot of opportunities that look good when applying to grad school programs. I know many classmates who did cool projects, but these were more towards "look, I did something cool and now I'm on reddit" vs. "look, I did something cool and now I'm published." The former are great when you're applying for a job at a company, but people looking at your grad school apps will care a lot more about the latter.</p>

<p>I wish someone had told me this back in 2006. When you apply to a graduate school, really what happens is that professors look at your app and then try to see if you'd be a good fit for the school in general, and for their lab in general. These days, there are so many people applying to grad schools that it's really competitive. The best applicants have a record of research in the specific area they're interested in, and usually have publications. This shows the person looking at your application two things. You are really interested in research because you've shown your dedication and have carried it through to publication. You are a capable researcher who can produce results and not just wander in circles or to a dead-end. </p>

<p>It's really hard to demonstrate these qualities at a small school like Olin. Because the school is so small, the number of projects you can work on is pretty small. It might work out if your interests align perfectly with a faculty member's, but usually that's not the case.</p>

<p>And if you are lucky enough to find a good match, odds are you won't publish. Whenever you look at a grad school lab, you'll see a certain kind of structure to it. There's always a PI (or more), who's basically the professor running the lab. There are a handful of grad students in the lab, actively working on research. And usually there's a small number of undergrads working the lab too. These undergrads usually work with a grad student on a specific project. The grad student helps direct the project and make sure it's moving forwards towards some reasonable attainable goal. Having the grad student in the loop is really important. They're better than a professor (in some ways) because they have more time to talk to you and direct you.</p>

<p>Olin doesn't really have this structure at all. If you want to do a "research" project, what often happens is you'll connect with a faculty member, discuss what you want to do, and then go do it over the course of a semester. Usually, at the end of the semester, you've done some cool work, but it wasn't really want you were expecting, it's not a finished product, and it's not publishable. </p>

<p>It's much easier (although still difficult) to get a publication at a larger school. You'll be working on a project that has a long track record (ie, not just something you thought of one day), so it's more likely to be going somewhere. You'll be working with grad students who both know what they're doing and will put effort into the project (because often its tied to their own research) with the goal of working towards a publication (because, in the end, that's what the grad student wants/needs as well).</p>

<p>The number of research projects that lead to a publication at Olin are pretty small (smaller than at a bigger university). This is pretty detrimental to those who are applying to grad schools. Anyone looking at your application will think "ok, so you did some cool stuff, but how do I know you'll be productive in my lab?" Usually, there are a few students in each class who were lucky enough to publish, but usually these are from summers spent elsewhere, or (rarely) students who got really lucky in finding the perfect match between what they (and a largeish group of your peers) wanted to do and what a faculty member was doing. </p>

<p>Olin used to have class-by-class stats on their website, but I can't find them anymore. They have cumulative stats for the top employers/grad schools though. You'll see that over the past 8 classes, there have been many more people who've gone into industry than grad school. At bigger universities, it's more like 50-50. This difference isn't just due to different interests.</p>

<p>You can make it work. You can go to Olin and then go to grad school. But expect it to be harder than if you were to go a big university.</p>

<p>(Apologies for the long and raw post. I guess I'm still a little bitter - I always wanted to go to grad school and four years out, I still haven't. I guess I'll go disappear from CC for another few years now.)</p>

<p>Thanks for the candid feedback. </p>

<p>Your points make sense. But when I looked at stats on the web a few years back (I too was unsuccessful finding them last week), it seemed like there were some impressive grad school results. Part of that may be due good GRE scores and tiny school (students know profs and can get personalized Letters of Recommendation. </p>

<p>Here is a bit of information from the Post-Graduate Planning office about Olin alumni and graduate school:</p>

<p>• 38% of all Olin alumni go to graduate school
• Students who plan to attend grad school are highly encouraged to do off-campus research in the summer(s) in addition to Olin research. </p>

<p>I think there are a lot of factors, but things like publishing are more relevant to PhD programs and not so much for Master’s graduate programs. Not all students wishing to go to grad school actually want to get a PhD.</p>

<p>There are a lot of things at play. The lure of high starting salaries at cool tech companies is a big draw even for students who initially want to go to grad school. Plus, many of those companies, particularly the large ones, have grad school as a benefit. Work and take the slow, “one class per semester at night” path as another way to get the Master’s graduate degree, but for free or close to it. Yes, one may owe time to the company if they paid for it, but those are tradeoffs and decisions everyone must make.</p>

<p>Someone with a long-term plan to get a PhD may want to consider the points you bring up but it isn’t the only path. </p>

<p>My daughter had a paper published with other Olin students while attending Olin. She attended graduate school a year after she graduated from Olin. </p>

<p>I should have been clearer - I was referring not to all graduate programs but PhD programs specifically. Master’s programs tend to be easier to get into because you’re just taking classes (not closely working with a PI) and are usually paying your own way.</p>

<p>Here are some statshttp://olin.edu/collaborate/careers-graduate-studies/results/</p>

<p>That’s a pretty impressive list. Are the grad programs for Olin grads? typically funded? </p>

<p>We’ve often heard that engineers usually were able to find programs that paid tuition and funding. (An exception was one case about Stanford). But that was in general, not Olin info. </p>

<p>As I mentioned in the 2014 Candidates Weekend thread, there were some comments made during the Fall Open House by school leadership that hinted there were issues for graduate school Olin alum’s, particularly in math. It was obvious from the body language there were concerns, but they seemed intent on adjusting the curriculum to address the perceived weakness.</p>

<p>That said, I feel it is an incredible value for money education, and if you are comfortable with the size of the school, it compares to any undergrad engineering education in the country. If research is lacking, make sure you do it in the summers.</p>

<p>We heard those concerns a couple years ago when we looked at Olin and there have already been curriculum changes to address it. There are new required math classes for, at least, current freshman moving forward. So they heard from the alums, reviewed the issue and made the necessary changes to address it fairly quickly.</p>

<p>Here’s the link to our results: <a href=“http://www.olin.edu/content/results/”>http://www.olin.edu/content/results/&lt;/a&gt; </p>

<p>Thanks. I had seen that link and its Top Employers table previously. But I had missed the year-specific detail tabs to the right. </p>

My kid wants to go to graduate school. I heard that because the kids selected are so magnificent, to begin with, they usually finish their MS and Ph.D. wherever they go, MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech, but they strugle a lot. Because they lack some theoretical foundations. Would you say that statement is true?